When science and medicine are sullied, as they are with abortion, then every legal effort needs to be made to stop the perpetrators.
Lila Rose exploded onto the national stage with her bombshell audios and videos of Planned Parenthood’s racism in action. See what’s happened since.
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Nobody should claim to have a consistent, viable, pro-choice position who cannot watch this video and still hold to their principles.
I’m curious: has Planned Parenthood made any direct response? There was a similar stunt pulled with ACORN, and eventually, sort of, with ill grace, I think they got around to saying they were going to fire the people who were willing to help set up a prostition business and make it tax deductible.
What’s been the response to this?
(I was going to say, when you posted similar material a little while ago, I bet someone was posing. As I thought, they were. That doesn’t change the fact that whoever was on the other end of the line has some very interesting explaining to do. “We tell all donors whatever they want to hear, as long as we get the money”???
Unfortunately the black minority is more likely to be poor, have an unwanted pregnancy and be without health insurance. Someone wanting to provide funding for an abortion a black woman requests is not necessarily racism. Nor is it racist for PP to accept or even be excited about a donation.
But Lila Rose and James Okeefe know their audience and know that this will fly with them.
Asitis,
Catch ya at the next cross burning 😦
Gerard I am about as far from being a racist as one can be. Just so you know.
That’s what David Duke used to say. But as with Duke, one’s words provide the window into the soul. Your statement was breathtakingly horrifying. The words speak for themselves.
Gimme a break Gerard. Perhaps it would serve you well to know where this comes from. There is an African-American woman who writes for our local city’s newspaper and I enjoy reading her work. A few years ago she wrote an op-ed piece about how removing public support for abortion (and contraception) posed a disadvantage for poor women. She was outraged. Of particular concern to her were the black women living in her city who, like elsewhere in this country, are more likely to be living at or near poverty level. She argued that without public funding and access to abortion, these women do not have the same freedom of choice that other women have and that is wrong.
I have to agree with her. It is wrong.
Bristol Palin is a ridiculous choice as spokesperson for Abstinence. Same for single motherhood. The reality these women face as single mothers is far from one in which you makes six figures for selling your baby photos to magazines, have your parents build you a house, and have people to care for your baby as you attend college classes and dream of opening a coffee shop. But I digress……..
The point is, I believe it is wrong that these women do not have the same choice that others do.
Being adamantly opposed to abortion ( and contraception) I can see how you do not appreciate this. But do not call me a racist for having some compassion for their plight
Keep spinning, but you’re not gaining any traction-just sinking deeper.
It’s all ONE. BIG. GENOCIDAL. LIE. If aborting one’s baby were the ticket to education and an upwardly mobile life, then Harlem would look like Beverly Hills. In the context of the Lila Rose investigation, you said that you see nothing wrong in a caller wanting to underwrite an African American abortion. The caller’s stated purpose was to cut down the competition for his newborn son. Your words speak for themselves.
Who ever mentioned Bristol Palin? Every pro-abort and racist who gets nailed starts flailing wildly and blaming Bristol Palin for Darfur, AIDS, ENRON, and global warming.
Keep spinning.
I’m not spinning Gerard. I don’t see this as being about race. It’s about poverty and disadvantage. Unfortunately in this country, you are far more likely to fall into that category if you are black. Especially a black, single mother.
But I don’t exoect you to understand. Number one issue here with you is that contraception and abortion are wrong. And anyone who doesn’t see that must be a racist.
(You signed your name to one post)
FYI I spent seven long years in Times Square NY in the 1980’s working on staff at Covenant House, a shelter for homeless teens, about 70% of whom were Black. Science is a second career for me, so spare me the snarking. I could write a series of books on the details of poverty in inner-city America.
Murdering the babies isn’t the answer.
Pumping teens full of hormones isn’t the answer.
Those are solutions proffered by racists and third rate minds.
It’s all ONE. BIG. GENOCIDAL. LIE. If aborting one’s baby were the ticket to education and an upwardly mobile life, then Harlem would look like Beverly Hills.
This is SO true! Why is this so difficult for people to see? Well said, Gerard.
Why do they not see this Bethany? Well, because the alternative (raising a family as a single mother) is hardly a ticket to an education and upwardly mobile life Bethany. And despite the high abortion rate, these communities also have a high unintended birth rate.
Not to mention, women in this communities are disadvantaged to begin with. Even without an unintended pregnancy their “ticket to education and an upwardly mobile life” is harder to come by. Harder still if you are trying to raise a baby with little education, little money and on your own.
Okay Asitis- then can you tell me how abortion is helping these women? What good does abortion actually do?
Well Bethany, it gives them the opportunity to continue their education, start a career, build a relationship… Whatever it is that they need in order to get themselves ( and possibly their future children) to a better place. That’s very difficult to do in this country, in those communities while raising a baby (or babies) singlehandedly.
Again, I don’t expect you to see it this way. I know how you feel about abortion.
Really? How many others of those 18 million babies went on to get an education and career?
I find it slightly amusing that in one breath, you deny that abortion helps women get a better education or better themselves (when it suits your argument)… Then in another breath, you talk about how abortion actually DOES help women get an education and better themselves. Which is it, Asitis? And i would repeat Gerard’s question- which of those mothers went on to have a better education and career as a result of having an abortion? I would like to know how abortion REALLY helps women.
Bethany where did I supposedly deny that abortion helps a woman get a better education or better themselves? You’ll have to show me in order for me to know how you could have got that all wrong.
In previous posts here, you have been asked the question, “If abortions are supposed to help women get an education and better their lives, then why are these problems not already solved, since abortion has been in those disadvantaged communities for decades now- why are they still poor and uneducated? Why do we not see their careers growing and their lives getting better?”… your response is that abortion doesn’t automatically help the woman better herself. I’ll see if I can find the original posts sometimes, but the question still remains. What does abortion actually do to help women?
Well that was easy! The original comments were right above the one you took time to write out. Too bad you didn’t see them!
The question was posed first (rhetorically) by Gerard and then again by you at 4:59pm as:
“If aborting one’s baby were the ticket to education and an upwardly mobile life, then Harlem would look like Beverly Hills.
This is SO true! Why is this so difficult for people to see? Well said, Gerard.”
To which I responded:
“Why do they not see this Bethany? Well, because the alternative (raising a family as a single mother) is hardly a ticket to an education and upwardly mobile life Bethany. And despite the high abortion rate, these communities also have a high unintended birth rate.
Not to mention, women in this communities are disadvantaged to begin with. Even without an unintended pregnancy their “ticket to education and an upwardly mobile life” is harder to come by. Harder still if you are trying to raise a baby with little education, little money and on your own.”
Nowhere in there do I “deny abortion helps women get a better education and better themselves” Bethany. In fact I state just the opposite.
As for how does abortion help women? Well, you already asked me that question and I answered it at 5:48 and then you acknowledged that I did so at 5:55.
Last line edited by the Censor Librorum. No catty digs.
Asitis, I am talking about previous posts, not just this one. This topic has been brought up before, and you have answered similarly.
Sure, you have answered the question, but not sufficiently – you said that abortion gives them the opportunity to better themselves, to get a career, to get an education, etc. (it is sad that you consider a child to be a hindrance to these things, but I digress).
So the question that begs (and has been asked repeatedly) is, after having access to abortion for SO LONG, WHY are the and poverty levels still so low, and why are these women not bettering themselves, why are they not choosing to get an education, etc… as abortion is supposedly supposed to help them do? Where is the evidence that this has helped ANY of these women to really and truly better themselves?
If you can’t show me an example of how abortions actually HAVE helped women in this way, then you are simply theorizing.
Bethany, I would never have denied “that abortion helps women get a better education or better themselves “. You are making that up.
And I have already answered your question about how abortion helps women. And yes, it is sad truth that a child can be a hindrance on getting an education, a career and making one’s ( and one’s child’s) way out of a poor, dangerous environment.
So why are these communities still stuck in poverty and violence? Well as I already said ( at 5:10), despite the higher abortion rates, there is still a high incidence of children raised by single mothers. And this makes it harder to get ahead. Beyond that, as I also already noted, there are other disadvantages these communities are facing. You know these: inferior schools, drugs, crime, bad role models, inadequate parenting/supervision, unemployment, etc., etc. It’s a big problem that needs to be fixed.
Unintended pregnancy is only part of the problem. Some people do manage, despite all this, to make a better life for themselves and their families. This is more likely to happen for those with an education and a good job.
Asitis, you continue to tell me that abortion is supposed to be helping these women, yet there is no evidence that it has at all, ever. In fact, things keep getting worse and worse in these communities, and especially in the areas you mention.
Yet you cling to this theory for dear life. Is abortion really so sacred to you that you can’t open your eyes and see that it hasn’t helped any of them?
Even if there is a high rate of single motherhood, because of abortion (if your theory was correct) then there should still be SOME evidence that abortion is helping SOME of them. Where is it?
There isn’t. That’s why you have to shift the blame to other factors.
Oh and by the way you’re wrong that children are a hindrance to any of those things. In fact, many people better themselves BECAUSE of their children.
inferior schools, drugs, crime, bad role models, inadequate parenting/supervision, unemployment, etc., etc. It’s a big problem that needs to be fixed.
And I suppose none of these things could possibly be related to abortion in any way, whatsoever. Naahhh..
Well that would be more of a stretch……. and less obvious then abortion giving them a better chance of getting an education and career.
Bottom line Bethany is that no matter how much proof there was of how abortion helps women it wouldn’t matter one iota to you, would it?
No.
Just keep avoiding the question, Asitis. 🙂
-except that most of those relationships fail after the abortion
-and many of those women end up abusing drugs, alcohol and getting involved in abusive relationships
-and many of those women go on to have a second and third abortion that have NOTHING to do with getting another chance….
I’m not avoiding it at all Bethany. Of course there are women who have had abortions that would say it helped them. There are likely studies that have been done on this. I don’t care to search for them and show you evidence. It’s a waste of my time because as I said, even if such evidence proved, beyond a doubt that abortion was helpful to women, it would not change your view Bethany.
It’s the same reason I won’t argue my position on abortion with you. Why bother?
similarily no matter how much proof we provide that life begins at conception, zygotes are human beings and alive, abortion harms women, etc. etc. etc., “it wouldn’t matter one iota, would it?”
😉
Just saying….
“It’s the same reason I won’t argue my position on abortion with you. Why bother?”
so then take a hike mike, or suck it up buttercup?
😉
As for abortion harming woman, that’s a different story. If there was significant, valid evidence that abortion caused more harm then good for women then that would matter one iota to me. Bethany is wrong when she claims that “abortion is so sacred ” to me. It’s not.
Your allegation of Bethany having a closed mind has been removed by the Censor Librorum.
Why?
Wow, what a point counter-point. I think I agree with most of the content of the first two posts asitis put up, EXCEPT that none of it is an answer to outrage that Planned Parenthood would ACCEPT a donation TARGETED to limiting the number of black babies. Nothing said here supports the notion that allowing black women access to abortion is a genocidal lie. That is smug, self-interested rhetoric — not in the sense of personal gain, but of scoring points for a political platform. For all the black women who seek and obtain abortions, there are lots and lots of babies being born who have all kinds of beautiful brown complexions. There is no imminent shortage.
I live around the corner from a Planned Parenthood, which is right next to the Irish Cultural and Heritage Center, in a low income neighborhood where more people than not have a high epidermal melanin concentration. I have a little brother whose mother is single raising four children. Access to abortion is never going to be a solution for social problems, but it can, sometimes, be a reasonable choice for an individual woman to make. Never ever considering abortion is also a reasonable choice an individual woman may make.
“Access to abortion is never going to be a solution for social problems, but it can, sometimes, be a reasonable choice for an individual woman to make”
really?
how can abortion ever be a “reasonable choice”?
how can destroying another human being so you can get your act together and go to school, get a career, save a relationship ever be reasonable?
Shame on you Siarlys to suggest that this is a reasonable solution! 😦
Thank you SJ. Maybe I should explain that I don’t accept outright from Live Action that the donor or PP were “targeting” pregnant women because they were black. As I said to Gerard, I believe it is about poverty not race. But make it about race and then you’ll get people riled. It would get me riled too if I were sure that was the case here. I’m not so sure.
“Access to abortion is never going to be a solution for social problems, but it can, sometimes, be a reasonable choice for an individual woman to make. Never ever considering abortion is also a reasonable choice an individual woman may make”.
I agree.
I hate for this to be my first post here lest anyone think I am in any way sympathetic to abortion as a solution to social ills. No matter what “benefits” abortion is alleged to have, nothing, NOTHING justifies taking the life of another human being to achieve those benefits for yourself. Nothing.
Having said that, I have to say that I don’t think it was racism that motivated these planned parenthood people. Margaret Sanger was a hideous racist (no one can deny this – she stated it very clearly). However, your average rank and file planned parenthood employees truly believe (sickly, evilly, wrongly) that abortion is a “good” – that they are “helping” women and protecting an important “right”. Well, what’s better than helping your average woman? Helping your average POOR woman. She’s disadvantaged! Underprivileged! We can’t expect her to bear the burden of a child! It’s this mindset that motivates these people in much the same way as colleges would accept donations to a minority scholarship fund. They would probably accept the donations even if the caller had a racist motivation (i.e. “I’d like to donate to this minority scholarship fund b/c I that would be one less black person at my kid’s university.”) The employees clearly operate on one twisted principle: abortion is a good solution and should be available to as many people as possible. They probably think it’s helpful to minority women.
It’s monstrous. I just don’t think they are motivated by racism to accept these donations.
Asitis, there is a reason you are here, and it is to debate abortion. If you do not wish to discuss abortion with me or anyone else here, then why post here at all?
If you’re going to make a claim that abortion helps women, then you need to back it up. That’s all i’m saying. If you can’t, I totally understand. Just be honest enough to admit it.
First, you have to find the good that abortion has done for women, in order to be able to compare it to the bad, Asitis.
You have yet to provide us with any evidence of abortion ever truly helping women. There is ample evidence of abortion harming women. Read the book Lime 5, for instance.
If you agree with what S said, Asitis (that “Access to abortion is never going to be a solution for social problems”) then why do you keep insisting that abortion CAN be a solution for social problems for women in poor communities?
I see what you’re saying, and it might be true for some individuals. Either way, it’s bigoted thinking. They think that the poor are inferior and shouldn’t spread. They think the only way a person in these situations can better themselves is through a college education or through being childless. They think that the poor are incapable of having a happy life without having more money.
Bethany, what I am agreeing to here is that abortion is not going to solve all of society’s problems. I touched on this in my 8:27pm reply.
That is NOT to say that I do not see it as a solution to some women’s problems in poor communities.
Bethany, have you ever lived in a poor, crime-riddled inner- city neighbourhood? I haven’t either, but I have driven through them. And I read the newspapers. And that’s enough for me to know that it’s not a good place to live. Do you think it is?
It’s not a case of thinking these people are inferior. It’s a case of thinking this way of living is inferior and believing they deserve better.
I do not believe that, in general, “the only way a person can better themselves is through a college education or though being childless”. But we are talking about a specific type of community here Bethany. And in this case, if you wait to have an education, a good job and a good relationship before having a family your chances of a better life for yourself and your family are greater.
Asitis, have you ever actually spent any time with these kinds of people? I have.
You are trying to fix a gaping wound with a bandaid. It won’t work.
You completely ignore the root causes of these problems, and you attempt to “fix” their problem by allowing more violence!
Poverty is not the problem. Lack of education is not the problem.
The same mindset that says it’s okay to kill your own babies for your own selfish reasons is the same mindset that says it’s okay to leave your girlfriend /wife to fend for herself because she got pregnant and you don’t want to have to deal with another baby.
It’s the same mindset that says it’s okay to steal and take what is not yours, even if you hurt
someone else in the process.
It’s the same mindset that says it’s okay to spend all of your living on drugs, because that’s what you “want”, even if the rest of your family suffers as a result of your addiction.
It’s the same mindset that says it’s okay to beat your girlfriend/wife because you’re angry.
Abortion is NOT the answer to ANY of life’s problems. It is another problem in itself.
Asitis,
I grew up in a slum ghetto in Brooklyn New York, with all the trimmings:rats, roaches, mice, waterbugs, silverfish, drug pushers and addicts, poverty, etc. We were poor.
The great difference here is that my parents stressed education, self-discipline, faith, and morals. All five children in my family strove to move forward educationally, as did others in my neighborhood. We made it out by hard work and stern discipline.
You’re right, we did deserve better, and we attained better by earning it with the sweat of our brows. We all worked our way through college and graduate school, unlike many of our privileged counterparts. We’re proof that it can be done, and that murdering one’s babies is not the necessary prerequisite for getting out.
I thank God for all of those hardships. They helped to forge my character and have given me the moral authority to tell you with absolute certitude that your solution, well-intentioned as it might be, is genocidal.
Teaching self discipline, faith, and morals.
Now THERE is a solution that will work.
Bethany I disagree that poverty is not a problem. It is a problem.
And we disagree on abortion. I, like many, do have the mindset that abortion is sometimes “okay” and a woman should have the right to make that choice. But we do not for a moment also believe it’s okay to beat your girlfriend/wife or abandon your children or abuse drugs at the expense of yourself and your family.
Good to know.
It’s the same mindset, Asitis. Doesn’t matter if you wouldn’t do the other.
Gerard then you can attest to the importance of an education and a job in working one’s way out of such a slum ghetto.
I think you would agree that would be very difficult to do as a single mother.
No it’s not the same mind set Bethany. And it’s not simply a matter of not doing the others. We do not believe they are “okay”.
Sure it is, Asitis. It’s the same mindset of thinking that what YOU want is always right, whether or not it hurts another individual in the process. Doesn’t matter if you wouldn’t do the others.
Bethany, we do not think that what we want is always right, regardless how it hurts others.
Nonsense.
Oh Asitis, abortion is just that. Sorry.
With abortion, your selfish desires are worth more than the life of a child. A child is killed so you can do what you want to do.
That is worse than some of the things I listed as a comparison.
Once again Bethany, you have a much different view of abortion than I do. You can believe that abortion is worse than all those things and that we therefore think all those things are okay too.
But that doesn’t mean that abortion actually is worse and that we would do those things and that we don’t think of others before ourselves.
It’s only that way in your mind and others who believe similarly about abortion. I get that.
A single mother with self discipline and morals can rise out of such a situation without even considering aborting her baby for a moment.
It is the morals and work ethic that are lacking, Asitis.
Once again Bethany, you have a much different view of abortion than I do. You can believe that abortion is worse than all those things and that we therefore think all those things are okay too.
I never said you thought those things were okay. You miss the point, again.
It is the same mindset that causes these problems to begin.
That doesn’t mean that everyone who agrees with abortion is automatically going to agree with those things.
What I am saying is that the root of the problem for all of the above examples is selfishness and a lack of love and consideration for other human beings.
In order for her to rise out of the situation Bethany she’s still going to need an education and a job. Yes, that takes self-discipline among many other things, especially with a family to care and provide for.
How exactly is she going to learn self discipline when she is told to get out of things the “easy way” through abortion?
And just as a reminder- you still have not provided any examples of even a single person who has been helped to better themselves as a result of abortion. And you won’t. Because it doesn’t happen.
Well Bethany, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I do not see abortion as a lack of love and consideration for others and not thinking of what we want is always right no matter how it hurts others. I don’t. You do. I get it. Loud and clear. I have no desire to try to convince you are wrong or convince you I am right. It’s futile.
Actually Bethany it does happen. Surely it does. I could actually share someone that I know’s story. And I could probably find some research reports. But again, why bother? Your mind is set. It matters not to me.
As for learning self-discipline…… having a baby is not necessarily going to teach her self discipline and is only going to make it harder for her to get an education and a job. Having an abortion is not necessarily going to wipeout the self-discipline she had to begin with that was leading her toward an education and career.
Look, I HOPE we agree that it would be best for these women to not be living under and raising their families in these conditions. I THINK you see that having and education and a job allow these women and their families to have a better life.
Where we differ is how we see them getting there.
Asitis, there is a high birthrate as well as abortion rate in these communities, correct?
So can you please explain to me why it would NOT be a good solution to give women the choice to kill their born children so that they can have the opportunity to get an education and career?
After all, it would be the same solution. She would not have to worry about taking care of a child anymore, and she could be freed up to pursue her education and better her life. Right?
Gee Bethany, let me think… because murder is wrong. That’s obvious. And it’s also obviously a question designed to get me into a futile debate about abortion. As always, no thanks.
Ah, opting for the easy way out again, i see. That’s all right- I didn’t expect you to give me an honest answer to the question.
I gave you the same solution, only in a way that you could understand is wrong –
You are well aware that your reasons for not accepting the solution of killing a born child are the same as my reasons for not accepting abortion as a solution for the same problem.
It is not a responsible thing to kill children in order to pursue your goals, nor is it a solution to any problem. And that’s all there is to it.
And if you think abortion is a futile debate, I have to kind of wonder why you’re still here debating it, instead of running and jogging, or spending time with those hockey boys of yours.
“You are well aware that your reasons for not accepting the solution of killing a born child are the same as my reasons for not accepting abortion as a solution for the same problem.”
Exactly! And the operative word there Bethany is “MY”.
And that is why the abortion debate is futile. I see it as a personal issue. Nevertheless, there are other issues that come up around it that I find worthwhile to discussion and debate. And that’s what I do.
Oh and by the way Betahny I RUN , not jog. And those hockey playing boys are at school. Not homeschool. Where are yours kids?
Exactly! And the operative word there Bethany is “MY”.
And that is why the abortion debate is futile.
Wow, that’s why it’s futile? The word “My”?
I guess it’s futile to discuss rape also- because MY opinion on it is that it is immoral and evil. Never mind that it hurts another person and is illegal – the fact that it is “MY” opinion automatically means that there is no validity or logical explanation for the opinion!
Or child abuse – MY opinion on it is that it is wrong and damages a child physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Never mind that there is ample evidence that this is true- the argument automatically becomes futile because I said it was “MY” opinion.
I guess when I put “my” in any argument, it automatically means that it’s just a matter of opinion and nothing more! Wow! Thanks for letting me in on this secret, Asitis. Makes it easier to dismiss other people’s arguments, and ignore them, doesn’t it?
And that is why the abortion debate is futile. I see it as a personal issue.
The operative word there being “I”?
Where are yours kids?
Well, one of them is currently in my womb. (Fortunately, my womb is a safe environment for him.)
Bethany, you said “my reasons”. My arguing is not going to have any effect on your that abortion is wrong Bethany. That’s why it’s futile.
I never said your opinion was not valid nor logical. I simply said it is futile to debate it.
Now, I have to go. If you have anything else to say, I’ll check in later.
C-ya!
As of 2006, African Americans made up 13.5% of the population. In 2007 24.7% of African Americans lived in poverty (compared to 8.2% of whites, and 21.5% of Hispanics of any race).
David H. Albert has a wonderful essay discussing the roots of poverty. Through his research he identify six prerequisites for the personal and generational accumulation of wealth (the opposite of poverty). These six prerequisites are usually easier for immigrants to overcome, especially the lighter their skin color is. So, Hispanics probably have a better chance of digging their way out of poverty.
However, Albert also found that African Americans have systematically and legally been denied these prerequisites since slavery ended. For instance, there are often heavier penalties for “black” crimes than “white” crimes, causing more break down in the family (intact nuclear and extended family is one of the markers for wealth accumulation).
Since minorities are disproportionately poor, easier access to contraception and abortions that target the poor really target minorities. They encourage the further break-down of committed relationships by claiming to offer consequence-free sex and thus further encourage the breakdown of intact families (making it harder to get out of poverty) and the spread of disease and sterilization (expectation of extended life expectancy, especially for males, being another marker for wealth). They also physically eliminate future minority voters.
Abortion is not a cure for poverty. It exploits poverty.
How is this a solution?
Murdering your baby is presented as a solution?
What problems does it solve Asitiss?
The woman is still poor after the abortion?
The woman may still be abused after the abortion?
The woman is still uneducated after the abortion?
The woman will likely NOT have the relationship continue after the abortion?
HOW is this a solution?
what you are saying is that the solution to poverty is abortion
well at 1.5 million abortions per year in America for the past 30 years and there are STILL poor people in America.
proaborts also claim that abortion is a solution to crime
but we still have very high crime rates
what a bigoted position to have against single mothers!
So single mothers cannot have self discipline, faith NOR morals.
And you claim that Margaret Sangers ideals were racist and bigoted.
You a supporter of Sanger have proven it yourself.
Instead of telling poor women they can’t do any better than to kill their babies lets tell them they can do better by starting off to have those babies and help them improve themselves.
It’s the same as telling teens they can’t possibly NOT have sex before marriage so do it anyway and take a pill.
Your views totally ignore the dignity of the single mother/teen. 😦
obviously, with 1.5 million abortions per year and over 50 million babies destroyed, abortion is FAR from a personal issue any more
it has far reaching consequences for any society which actively promotes abortion
China is one extreme example of how abortion is no longer simply a “personal issue”.
it never WAS a personal issue between a woman and her doctor because any society depends upon new babies being born
Mary Catherine we have enough babies being born in this world.
No one is going to mandate me (or anyone else) to give up my birth control and start having babies to further populate the earth with humans.
How many children you have is a personal issue.
The Chinese will take care of their problem by realizing soon enough that it’s advantageous to have females for a while or realizing that sex selection is a bad idea. In the meantime, there will be some men that leave the country for brides, and there will be some men that don’t end up marrying. Both of these can be seen as a positive as for a while anyway, their population growth will slow. And eventually they’ll be back to normal ratios.
No, Mary Catherine I am not saying THE solution to poverty is abortion.
I am saying that a women is more likely to get the education and job she needs to work her way out of poverty if she is not also trying to raise a family as a single parent.
You will see this reiterated below as well.
“what a bigoted position to have against single mothers!
So single mothers cannot have self discipline, faith NOR morals.”
Excuse me Mary Catherine? Where did you get that gem?
How does the abortion help her? Well, in order to get out of this poor, violent community she will most likely need an education and a job. Both of these are harder to obtain while being a poor single parent.
Refer to Gerard’s post at 9:13am and mine below it.
“Mary Catherine we have enough babies being born in this world.”
blah, blah, blah……..uh huh……
nananana nanana good-bye,
nananana nanana good-bye…….;)
And by that I mean we’re not exactly decreasing in numbers in this planet Mary Catherine.
But don’t worry. No one is going to stop you from having us many babies as you can have (or could have had) . Just as no one is going to force me to have as many as I could have.
And so it should be.
“Mary Catherine we have enough babies being born in this world.”
your opinion is not shared by many many people..
“No one is going to mandate me (or anyone else) to give up my birth control and start having babies to further populate the earth with humans.”
that suits me just fine.
perhaps it is a blessing that people like me will have more children than people like you….
eventually there will be more people like me than you…..
hmmm, evolution at work! 🙂
Come let us reason together saith the Lord.
Nyeah-nyeah-nyeah-nyeah-nyeah doesn’t really reach the level of reasoning that God seems to call for.
Neither does walking away just because we can’t agree.
We need to keep talking to each other, no matter how much we differ, if only because we all have to live in this world. I bet Mary Catherine would be a really loveable neighbor, even if we did argue over the fence about whether a zygote is human, in between working on our respective gardens.
It is important to acknowledge, you sincerely believe that this is a child, I don’t, that is a huge gulf, and we need to keep talking.
Agreed SJ. Problem is though, that some people just can’t seem to get past that huge gulf and at least appreciate why the other person might believe as they do.
“Bethany, have you ever lived in a poor, crime-riddled inner- city neighbourhood? I haven’t either, but I have driven through them”
Would this poster be happy if her prodigy was having relations with a poor?
But, the big question is, would this poster pay for the abortion for the poor her prodigy was attracted to?
When one thinks about the era before a court decided that killing human being’s was legal, would Asitis offer her a coat hanger?
Afterall, if one thinks about it, who but a prochoicer would know to use a coat hanger for birth control.
“Keep spinning, but you’re not gaining any traction-just sinking deeper”.
How about answering the questions presented to you, Asitiss?
It is a fact that only pro-choicers would know and advise a person to use a coat hook as a tool to control population.
Asitis,
Your comment to Astran was deleted by the Censor Librorum due to poor form. No calling people’s questions ridiculous.
Okay Gerard, then please delete those words in the comment and re- post. There is nothing else uncivil in there.
I do think you have allowed some other uncivilty from others to pass here.
Nope. Policing the specifics of your comments is your responsibility. The Censor Librorum has become sensitized to a pattern of condescending remarks from you in particular. If such becomes a similar pattern with others, they will share the same treatment. The Censor Librorum is using deletion of the entire comment as an incentive to proof-text posts before submission. Follow-on submission of the sanitized post will be deleted as added incentive to keep it civil the first time around.
To all gentle denizens of these threads, pro-choice or pro-life: Please respect this space as en extension of my table where civility matters more than the certitude of one’s position.
Please avoid ad hominem attacks in the misguided attempt to score quick, easy, debate points.
God Bless
Well Gerard, given the comments of others that were deemed acceptable, i did not think that callng someones questions ridiculous would be considered uncivil. Now I know.
If astran ‘s questions were serious, then it is most unfortunate that he/she will not get a chance to hear my answers because obviously they wanted to know and it would also give them a better understanding of the other side. I do think SJ brings up a good point in this regard.
I will be extra careful in the future and perhaps then this voice on this side of the fence might be heard. At least by some.
Peace
Thanks Asitis. And abundant Peace to you as well. It’s the professor in me, but ridiculing one’s questions puts a chill in the air that prevents more timid observers from becoming active participants. I’ve removed students from my courses for doing so.
Sometimes people pose rhetorical questions in an ironic voice to make their point. I am concerned for your being treated civilly as well. If people cross the line with you, rest assured your faithful Censor Librorum will defend your honor!! 🙂
Agreed Gerard. And that is how I took astrans comment: the point he/ she was making was that she thinks I find the poor inferior and that I think women should have coat hanger abortions. That is why I ignored the questions. When he/ she insisted that she actually wanted answers. It’s unfortunate she cannot hear them in order for her and others to see just how wrong the points she was trying to male are.
Oh well, maybe in the future.
Peace to you Professor!
Sorry, that should be “THEN she/he insisted she actually wanted answers”
Nobody knows how to use a coat hanger for performing an abortion. It is, by any criterion, the wrong tool for the job. One of the imbalances in this debate is that those who style themselves “pro-life” can make posters of aborted fetuses, but few people still living remember what happened when most abortions were a criminal offense: large numbers of women went to back alley, medically untrained, practitioners, and often died in the process. That made two deaths instead of one. It didn’t save the baby. The coat hanger was one of the more powerful arguments for repealing criminal laws on abortion, for years before Roe v. Wade.
Many years ago, I worked with a man, now deceased, who would respond to any discussion on abortion by saying “My position is very simple: I’m against it. But then, I’ve never needed one.” If time allowed to speak further, he would recount that he had been involved in organizing an operation which arranged for women desiring an abortion to travel to Mexico, where it would be done by a competent doctor, with proper tools, in a sterile environment, at a reasonable cost. Why did he do that? He said, as long as wealthy women can fly to Switzerland to have it done, he would make sure that poor women had the same option.
I would suggest that if those who call themselves “pro life” abjure campaigning for criminal legislation, and focus explicitly on reaching out to individual women, to make a convincing case that “you should CHOOSE to carry your pregnancy to term, and how can we help,” then nobody would have any right to complain. I do have a sense that Planned Parenthood is becoming a business pushing a product, of which abortion is apparently the most lucrative, rather than a service organization. (So is Medic Alert, only their product isn’t so controversial, just equally commercialized). If you take away their customer base, too bad, that’s life, its a free country. The market for silver statues of Diana just went through the floor.
it depends.
when someone makes the ridiculous claim that a zygote isn’t living, it’s pretty hard to have a discussion
we are talking about BASIC biology
if someone doesn’t know basic biology and won’t take the time to understand basic biology it’s pretty hard to help them understand your POV and appreciate it.
the huge gulf here is that someone doesn’t know basic biology, or cant’ understand it or simply won’t accept basic biology because it doesn’t mesh with their life choices (same as the baby isnt human/person/alive because they’ve had an abortion) or their values.
I find it impossible to appreciate that someone in this day could actually believe that a zygote is nonliving.
It’s like believing the sun revolves around the earth or that the earth is flat when we know scientific fact proves otherwise.
I can’t appreciate WHY a person would believe such things.
🙂
If you don’t think it can be argued scientifically that life begins at different points then you’ll have to take that up with Dr. Scott Gilbert Mary Catherine. Embryology, or even biology itself is not my area of expertise. But it is his.
And if you won’t admit that your position on abortion is rooted in more than science then you are not being completely honest.
Good night.
“Nobody knows how to use a coat hanger for performing an abortion.”
Somebody spread the “sexual education” of a coat hanger as a tool to abort human beings. Those “somebodies” were people interested in population control of human beings.
As Mr. Nadal has written in another article( pro-homsexuals) concerning the promotion of condoms/spermicides as a tool to control AIDS, so it follows that the use of a “coathanger” to end human life was spread by those who are for the decision to abort human beings.
As for my questions to Asitiss, they explore poverty confronting abortion.
Evidently, those questions evoked a “emotional” response from Asitiss.
I apologize to Mr. Nadal for personalizing such questions. The “debating point” is the children of “educated, middle class parent(s)” reaction of their prodigy returning to poverty, from which all educated classes have emerged from. Get the poor to abort, from their child lacking sexual disipline with a poor, or having unwanted life in their personal life/family.
Soo, it’s time to ride off into the sunset in my Bugatti Veyron and…………. crash into a marsh.
“The “debating point” is the children of “educated, middle class parent(s)” reaction of their prodigy returning to poverty, from which all educated classes have emerged from. Get the poor to abort, from their child lacking sexual disipline with a poor, or having unwanted life in their personal life/family”.
A couple things Astran:
First, if my son had a child with someone who happened to come from a poor, dangerous community, that in itself does not “return” my son to poverty. If my son had not finished his education or started a career and they needed help, we would and could do that.
Secondly, I wouldn’t “get (her) to abort”. It is not my decision to make. At all. And if she chose to keep the baby that would not be an “unwanted life in their family”. It would be wanted. Unplanned perhaps, but wanted.
If a female is poor, she doesn’t have the money to get a abortion. Children of the educated middle class fund a poor’s abortion after having no disciplne, which was supposed to be instilled into their educated prodigy.
If the unwanted life isn’t aborted, then any relationship of the poor, and child of the educated middle class, is easily and continuously a reminder of that lack of discipline of the educated middle class child of a pro-choicer.
It is the first step toward’s a return to where the middle class emerged, poverty. If the parent continues to financially support their middle class child, who has exhibited a character trait of a poor, a lack of discipline, the parent is just delaying the return to poverty conditions, when the divorce(if they even marry) comes.
The brightside is the female poor sometime rises above the insult of the pro choicer child of status, who almost always wants to preserve his status by means of abortion as a choice, and get some of that education to escape poverty.
Of course the poor know’s the true perception of the parent(s) of the child of the educated middle class, and will confront the parent of the educated eventually. Usually with the words expected from the “dangerous poor.”
Which brings up another question to a educated middle class parent whose child lacked discipline: would they pay for the education of the “poor family member” first, or their undisciplined child first?
The dirty secret of the middle class is they produce poor, and Obama knows this, which is why he is going to tax the middle class to pay for their undisciplined prodigy.
Wow Astran. You do like to paint people wih a broad brush. You have absolutely no idea of what I stand for. It certainly isn’t this view you have presented of how you think things are.
I wonder what your story is that makes you feel this way about others?
I hardly know where to start. Guess I’ll copy all and take it from there item by item:
“If a female is poor, she doesn’t have the money to get a abortion. Children of the educated middle class fund a poor’s abortion after having no disciplne, which was supposed to be instilled into their educated prodigy”.
True, it’s unfortunate that the poor are often not covered as most other people are in this country by their health insurance or own finances. Without this, they do not have the same choice that other women have. This is one of the reasons some people think abortion should be covered by public insurance.
Perhaps you don’t realize that I am not opposed to sex outside of marriage. I do not considered such a pregnancy as “having no ciscipline”. I see it as not being careful enough to use contraception properly and all the time. And that blame could fall on either party. Or it could just be sheer bad luck.
“If the unwanted life isn’t aborted, then any relationship of the poor, and child of the educated middle class, is easily and continuously a reminder of that lack of discipline of the educated middle class child of a pro-choicer”.
Again, I don’t view this as a lack of discipline. More importantly though, I’m curious of something: It appears that you yourself consider this pregnancy a lack of discipline on the part of the middle class male. What about the poor female? Do you not expect her to be similarly disciplined? Or do you assume all poor people are undisciplined? I think that’s a horribly unfair assumption.
“It is the first step toward’s a return to where the middle class emerged, poverty. If the parent continues to financially support their middle class child, who has exhibited a character trait of a poor, a lack of discipline, the parent is just delaying the return to poverty conditions, when the divorce(if they even marry) comes”.
Again you call a lack of discipline “a character trait of (the) poor”. Do you really think this way?
As for continuing to financially support our child, the approach actually would be to support them until their education is complete and then assist, as need, until they can be financially independent.
“The brightside is the female poor sometime rises above the insult of the pro choicer child of status, who almost always wants to preserve his status by means of abortion as a choice, and get some of that education to escape poverty”.
Regardless of the social status of the father, I agree that if a women has and keeps her baby and raises it as a single mother, an education can be her ticket out of poverty and a better life for her child. It’s a difficult thing to do, but it can happen.
“Of course the poor know’s the true perception of the parent(s) of the child of the educated middle class, and will confront the parent of the educated eventually. Usually with the words expected from the “dangerous poor.””
First of all Astran, it’s not the poor that are dangerous. Many poor communities are dangerous, particularly in inner-cities but that is not to say poor people are inherently dangerous. Is this really what you think? Or is it what you assume I and all other middle class people think? If so, you’re wrong.
“Which brings up another question to a educated middle class parent whose child lacked discipline: would they pay for the education of the “poor family member” first, or their undisciplined child first?”
Again “lacked discipline”. And only applied to the middle class male and not the poor female. Your view. Not mine.
Of course if I could only pay for one education, it would be for my son’s. If I could afford both, I would pay for both.
“The dirty secret of the middle class is they produce poor, and Obama knows this, which is why he is going to tax the middle class to pay for their undisciplined prodigy.”
How did you come up with this “dirty secret”? News to me.
Obama and other pro-choicers would like everyone to have equal access to reproductive choice.
First off, you know that Gilbert believes the zygote is a living organism – you never responded to Bethany or my questions on a previous thread.
Instead you chose to disappear.
Secondly, your views on abortion are definitely NOT based in science because science is NOT on your side of the debate, A.
All scientific evidence in fact, supports the position that at conception a new living organism begins
that this organism is definitely unique from the two people who came together to create it
and that it is quite capable of directing it’s own development
ALL of these scientific facts, some of which are based on fundamental laws of biology, proaborts have denied since the abortion debate began, without being able to provide adequate FACTUAL arguments to support their views.
if anything, the proabortion argument is based SOLELY on lies and feelings (need I remind you that we were told in the 1970’s that what we were carrying was a “blob of cells” even though photographer Lennart Nilsson’s photographs in the 1960’s proved the baby was everything BUT a blob of cells!)
It also so happens that faith and reason remain on the side of the prolife argument. Reason supports the science that a new life is created.
Come back when you’ve got that straightened out, Asitis.
oh and by the way, way to go to try to CHANGE the discussion parameters again A.
We are talking about YOUR view that the zygote is dead.
NOT about why I am prolife.
Going for retail therapy, why don’t you try some scientific therapy. 😉
Hey “Mary Catherine”, btw have you figured it out yet? Someone else has come out of the woodwork!
Now, as for the above, I told you you’ll have to take that up with Dr Gilbert. He’s the one who said one can argue scientifically that life begins at times other than fertilization. Furthermore, I never claimed anything about the status of a zygote.
Certainly you can reason your position with science. I agree. Gbert agrees. And certainly your position is in alignment with your faith. I dont disagree with any of that.
whenever you post a lie Asitis this is what I’m gonna do
nananana nananana hey hey hey good-bye
nananana nananana hey hey hey good-bye
like I said when you get it straight come back, then we’ll talk! 😉
Cheers,
MC
astran,
Asitis apparently doesn’t answer questions – maybe because she doesn’t have any answers.
That is why I generally don’t take her arguments very seriously and they are quite easy to punch holes through.
Have a great day! 😀
oh I get it – it’s the baby’s fault so lets kill it.
Cool!
That’s really a working solution.
So somebody has to pay the price and it’s the poor innocent baby…..
PATHETIC!
EVER thought of adoption? Go look it up online.
“In the meantime, there will be some men that leave the country for brides, and there will be some men that don’t end up marrying. Both of these can be seen as a positive as for a while anyway, their population growth will slow. And eventually they’ll be back to normal ratios.”
uh huh, and this is more brilliant liberal logic!
I can’t imagine TOO many countries that will be eager for a huge influx of Chinese males.
And wow, big bonus to a country that has millions of unmarried men. Incase it’s news to you, marriage stablizes men – they are healthier, wealthier and happier when they are married.
Women have a beneficial effect on men, tending to tone them down a little – again all this proved by many social science studies.
It will take them generations, if ever to get the sex ratios back to normal. In fact, their society may not recover.
In the meantime, society is destabilized, and women become commodified with the selling and kidnapping of women for brides becoming very common.
yup, it’s all comin up rosy, just like you said 😉
(now really onto that retail trip! yeah!!)
Adoption would be another choice. Some might might find that a harder one. But yes, it would make it similarly easier to get an education/ career than as a single mother.
Amusing.
Care to point out the lie do I can tell you how you got that wrong? Yet again.
No one suggested the skewed ratio was a bonus Mary Cat. Just that it would eventually work itself out.
Astran, you are obviously too young to have been a contemporary of the use of coat hangers in abortion, and equally obviously, you haven’t studied the history with any care. So let an old man who remembers fill you in.
The idea of using coat hangers, or similar easily procurable implements, to perform crude abortions, was developed by men who had no political agenda at all, not pro-abortion, not pro or anti poor people, they were hustlers looking for a way to make a quick buck. They knew there were young women desperate for abortion, who could not get it done by a doctor. Doctors didn’t risk their licenses or risk prison terms, for the most part. So any huckster could set up an illicit abortion service in the back of their auto repair shop, and use anything that came to hand, including a coat hanger. More likely than not, the coat hanger would perforate the uterine lining, leading to hemmorhage, infection, and death. You can say many things about Planned Parenthood, but one thing they do is maintain a sterile operating theater, staffed by licensed medical personnel, trained in human anatomy, equipped with the best tools available. You may consider what happens to the fetus murder, but it is much safer for the woman involved than the old coat-hanger method.
China is beginning to learn to appreciate daughters instead of following the traditional wish for a son. It is very simple, if painful and prolonged: the darling sons are unable to find brides! Horrors! Doting mothers will never have a daughter in law. Accordingly, the status of girl babies is beginning to rise. It may take a while for people to get it, but every choice really does have consequences. A careful examination of the benefits and costs of each decision is the beginning of wisdom.
???
you MUST be mistaken Asitis.
Perhaps you’re just sore you lost the Gilbert one! 🙂
Cheers,
MC
No, I don’t spell out things that are quite evident.
Try starting at the beginning of the comments and I’m sure with a little exercising of your brain you might find it.
When you can debate a point, staying on topic, then we’ll talk.
MC
oh and I forgot, also when you decide you won’t run away from the discussion when you can’t answer the questions.
MC
Mary Cat, there is no lie there. I’ve looked. Nice try.
As for running away when I can’t answer a question, you’re making this up too.
As for you not wanting to talk to me, hey I’m fine with that! Thngs is, you keep saying you won’t and yet you keep doing it. over and over and over again.
Clearly I’m not mistaken. I don’t think you know how obvious you are.
Oh, and as for “losing the Gilbert one”, I think Dr. Gilbert himself would disagree with you on that Mary Cat! 🙂 Maybe you should come on down and have a chat with him.
“China is beginning to learn to appreciate daughters instead of following the traditional wish for a son.”
yes and at WHAT price, SJ?
millions upon millions of aborted baby girls.
I feel sick. 😦
such lessons do not NEED to be learned if we would only follow the ways of God….
…… Or basic common sense. Where did they think mass sex selection would land them?
Advantage: Girls.
Mary Catherine, if we always followed the ways of God, the world would be a perfect place. However, our poor human institutions have always made errors about exactly what the ways of God are, and even slaughtered thousands or millions over the differences in understanding.
Most sins carry their own punishment as a natural consequence. Sometimes prevention can be better, but China made its choice, and they are reaping very predictable results, as asitis points out.
“It is the first step toward’s a return to where the middle class emerged, poverty. If the parent continues to financially support their middle class child, who has exhibited a character trait of a poor, a lack of discipline, the parent is just delaying the return to poverty conditions, when the divorce(if they even marry) comes”.
Again you call a lack of discipline “a character trait of (the) poor”. Do you really think this way?
Follow the thread.
Nadal;I grew up in a slum ghetto in Brooklyn New York, with all the trimmings:rats, roaches, mice, waterbugs, silverfish, drug pushers and addicts, poverty, etc. We were poor.
Nadal;The great difference here is that my parents stressed education, self-discipline, faith, and morals.
Asitiss; Gerard then you can attest to the importance of an education and a job in working one’s way out of such a slum ghetto.
Education is a act of discipline.
So is the liberal version of “sexual education”, a discipline.
Why punish a middle class male youth, who lacked sexual discipline ,with a unwanted life, especially when Obama would consider that a punishment of his child?
Asitss;Of course if I could only pay for one education, it would be for my son’s. If I could afford both, I would pay for both
So, we come to the fact that the poor, who wouldn’t get a abortion, is actually never family amongst the middle class.
A divorce results with the middle class child now having his wages garnished and the enabling, middle class parent, paying off his unwanted child’s “child support”.
$800 per month= $9600
18yrs x $9600=$172800
And of course, those medical bills, from the unwanted life produced from a lack of sexual discipline, might just break the bank of the undisciplined middle class male.
Be honest, a abortion is a rational act to preserve the status of the middle class youth(and their enabling parents) who use the poor for their sexually undisciplined, uneducated, escapades with a poor.
It’s a fear of going back to where they came from that motivates them to abort a poor’s baby.
The poor have nowhere to go but up, if you actually have a liberal mindset, while the middle class fear their returning to their roots by means of unwanted life.
P.S. You used the word “dangerous” when displaying your uneducated pov about the poor.
Asitiss; Well, in order to get out of this poor, violent community
Asitiss; Bethany, have you ever lived in a poor, crime-riddled inner- city neighbourhood
except that common sense is not something valid and unbiased – it’s the same as relying on feelings
what can seem sensible one day may not be the next
no one foresaw the skewing of sex ratios because no one has that kind of foresight – only the Divine
if we are imperfect beings then doesn’t it make much sense to rely on a perfect being – an all knowing, al mighty God?
Well, it wasn’t rocket science. Like I said, they didn’t listen to common sense.
yeah, yeah Asitis.. we believe you. we really do. 😉
we know liberals are the all seeing, all knowing most intelligent beings on planet earth **sarcasm**
far superior to people like Pope Paul VI whose predictions in Humanae Vitae all have come to pass…:;)
Asitis,
Please address people by their monikers in use here.
Keep the conversation on point. You’re straying way over the line and I’ve deleted you comment/
The Censor Librorum
Gerard, if you want the conversation to stay on point and not reduce your blog discussions to nonsense, then I do suggest you have a word with Astran, who has a history of crossing way over the line and demanding answers to questions that I find myself struggling to describe using a word you will accept. Seriously.
Look Mary Cat, you suggested that no one has the kind of foresight to realize that having more male babies than females will result in more male adults than females.
Well, it’s actually pretty obvious. It’s just common sense. They just didn’t listen to it.
All,
Cease Fire!
Retrieve your wounded and spend the rest of the day with someone you love.
Kiss them while you’re at it!
and Who, Asitis, in 1969 was telling people that abortion and contraceptives were wrong?
only the Catholic church.
Who throughout the 1970’s continued to expound on this message?
again, only the Catholic church.
NOT one feminist organization came forward to say that abortion could possibly be harmful to women or society.
Did PP do this? Of course not.
If it were so self-evident, one would think at least someone OTHER than the CC would speak up.
In the West, where science is God, and where we now have plenty of scientific evidence to back up the Catholic church’s take on abortion and contraceptives, you people STILL can’t accept the truth.
So please, dont’ tell me it was self evident and that people didn’t listen. Or obvious.
I rest my case.
Have a good one Dr.G. I’m off to kiss and hug alll my loved ones! 😉
Asitis,
Same here 😉
what case???
China didn’t USE abortion for sex selection.
You have the cart before the horse, dear.
The purpose of abortion in China was population control. (something Pope Paul VI warned about in HV)
Sex selection was the result of forced abortion……
Wrong again Mary Cat. The Chinese government used forced abortion for population control yes. But preferring their one child to be male, Chinese individuals DID use abortion for sex selection.
and THAT was the unexpected result of using abortion for population control.
No one expected that cultural effects would come into play, least of all the chinese.
If Chinese were going to be forced to have abortions or have one baby (however you look at it), then they were going to make sure the child they did have was a boy – a cultural attitude the Chinese government did not forsee nor expect. After all, the people in power threw away most of their cultural heritage in the Cultural Revolution. The key to their future was certainly not going to be their past traditions.
Do you honestly believe the Chinese implemented their forced abortion policy KNOWING it would unbalance and destabilize their society to the extent it has? I doubt it very much.
Like most liberal secular humanist policies, which have no basis in natural law or morality, they had no idea what would happen, except that their population would increase.
Thank you for making my point Asitis. 😉
As usual I’m now done.
Have a sweet day! 😀
sorry should read:
Like most liberal secular humanist policies, which have no basis in natural law or morality, they had no idea what would happen, except that their population would DEcrease.
thank-you thank-you….:)
“and THAT was the unexpected result of using abortion for population control”.
Mary Cat your argument that sex selection is the result of population control falls apart when one acknowledges that other countries use abortion for sex selection. It is the result of a cultural preference for male offspring. Blame that.
Again, I rest my case!
except that once again Asitis, no one foresaw that abortion would be used as a tool for sex selection because when abortion was legalized in the 1960’s and ’70’s ultrasound was not yet invented.
Thus there was no reliable way to determine the sex of the child.
Abortion first. Ultra sound second. Got it??
Abortion was used primarily and first as a back up to contraception.
That was WHY it was legalized in the first place – supposedly to free women from the biology of their bodies and the tyranny of having to carry unwanted pregnancies (read parasites).
As Pope Paul predicted eventually governments began to use co-ercive measures such as India in the 1970’s with forced sterilizations.
This has evolved to forced abortions in China and onto sex selection and search and destroy ultrasounds for the disabled. If people want to only have one baby or can only have one baby, they want that baby to be perfect – in every way including sex. The perfect sex in China is male.
No one predicted this except the CC because it has the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.
I can’t spell it out for you any plainer Asitis.
Once again Mary Cat, the root cause for skewed sex ratios is a cultural preference for males over females.
Without a cultural preference for males, China’s population control would not have produced these skewed ratios.
Without population control, cultures which prefer males have skewed ratios.
(And as an aside, ultrasound and abortion are not to blame for sex selection. Prior to that female infanticide was used. Very sad. I suspect it is still being used in some parts of the word where this cultural preference exists).
“Once again Mary Cat, the root cause for skewed sex ratios is a cultural preference for males over females. ”
didn’t I JUST state this! Amazing! 😉
And abortion helps them achieve this! Again, amazing! 😉
a consequence NEVER dreamed of by feminists! Their own sex being killed off! Amazing! 😉
Thanks again for proving my point! Double Amazing! 😉
Mary Cat, I’ll go over this again:
The reason for the skewed sex ratios is a cultural preference for males. Since the advent of ultrasound abortion has been used to select males children.
This does not mean that abortion is the root cause for the skewed sex ratios. The cultural preference for males is the root cause. Abortion is just a means to acheive this
Prior to ultrasound, infanticide was used rather than abortion.
In closing, I take you back to my original statement :
“Or basic common sense. Where did they think mass sex selection would land them?
Advantage: Girls.”
In China, people thought it would be to their advantage to have sons rather than daughters and aborted females in order to get males. If they were using their common sense they would have realized that if others were doing this within the one child policy, that there would be no advantage to having a boy. Pretty simple. No great foresight needed.
Problem is, they didn’t listen to common sense.
“And abortion helps them achieve this! Again, amazing!
a consequence NEVER dreamed of by feminists! Their own sex being killed off! Amazing!”
Again, abortion didn’t cause certain cultures to have a preference for males offfspring. Prior to abortion, female infanticide was used for sex selection.
I am sure it was not intended by pro-choice feminists that abortion would replace infanticide in these cultures. But they would likely argue that of the two, abortion is “better”.
Asitis: there you go again. Changing the parameters of the discussion!
I’m not arguing about the root causes of sex selection.
I’m discussing your comment that there are were NO unforseen consequences of abortions.
You insist that people saw the consequences but ignored them. I”m saying they did not see the consequences. In fact they said there were none.
Well there are: femicide is one such unforseen consequence.
Stop doing this. I’m done with you, babe.
Lest anyone think that abortion has no (unforseen) consequences I just read that since the 1980 China has aborted 400,000,000 babies.
That figure is 400 MILLION!
By 2020, 24 MILLION Chinese men will be unable to marry. Unable to find a bride. How terribly tragic! 😦
Mary Cat, I’m not changing the parameters at all. Nice try. In fact, I came back to my original statement to remind you just what I am arguing.
And again, femicide is not an unforeseen consequence of abortion. Cultures or people that prefer males might use abortion as the means to have male babies, but this is replacing femicide not creating it.
Femicide was around long before abrtion in these cultures.
And as for unforseen consequences, I stand by my case that they should have realized when they were aborting females en masse that they would have ended up with this skewed ratio. It’s just common sense.
Glad to hear you are finally done with this.
I’m afraid my capacity to move this spat to a higher level has been totally overloaded. Gerard, I would follow your advice, but there is only one whom I may kiss, and she’s working two straight eight-hour shifts as an RN tonight. Incidentally, if she ever agrees to marry me, she would never consider abortion, but we’re both too old to have children — it would be unfair to have a son knowing I would be 74 when he turned 18. A father needs more energy to provide either example or discipline.