Fox News reports that Cardinal Dolan, in an interview with David Gregory of Meet the Press, claims that the Church was “outmarketed” on the issue of gay marriage. From the report:
Asked why the church is losing the argument on gay marriage, Dolan responded, “Well, I think maybe we’ve been outmarketed sometimes. We’ve been caricatured as being anti-gay.”
He said the church supports “traditional marriage and is not “anti-anybody,” adding, “When you have forces like Hollywood, when you have forces like politicians, when you have forces like some opinion-molders that are behind it, it’s a tough battle.”
Without knowing it, Cardinal Dolan has identified the core of the problem. Our leadership, with few exceptions, have adopted the superficiality of branding and marketing as a cheap substitute for the grittiness and tenacity of evangelization. Worse still, while we have abandoned evangelization and hewing to the hard line of the Gospel, it is the other side who have been engaged in the grit and tenacity of evangelization.
That’s right. The other side has been engaged in three decades of evangelization, while the majority of our priests and bishops have endeavored to be “non confrontational” and “nonjudgemental”.
The results speak for themselves.
While the Church has been entirely kicked out of the public schools, with students being disciplined for wearing shirts bearing the word, “Christmas”, the other side has succeeded in getting complete acceptance in schools with gay/straight alliances, comprehensive sex education, and now state laws permitting transexual and transgender students permission to use whatever bathrooms they please.
That’s not marketing. That’s evangelization.
Our leaders have stood by, largely mute, while we have been kicked out of the public square by a vocal minority who have moved in to occupy the ground formerly held by the Church. That all begs the question as to how such a coup could have happened.
In truth, more than 85% of married Catholics ignore the Magisterium when it comes to the right use of sex in marriage and the use of contraception.
58% 67% of Catholics approve of gay marriage.
To say that those numbers are the result of marketing is to suggest that the Gospel has roots shallower than grass. And on that matter, Pope Francis has spoken loud and clear.
Many priests reacted with scorn to the challenge by Francis that they and their bishops get out of the rectory and go out among the people in a bold new way. Francis sees clearly that the Church is dwindling in influence because the people don’t know who they are. They have lost sight of their great dignity while so very many of our clergy refuse to engage the culture for fear of alienating people or seeming judgmental. That timidity is often defended as the cardinal virtue of Prudence.
It isn’t.
It’s cowardice, pure and simple.
A great definition of Prudence from New Advent:
One of the four cardinal virtues… A fuller description and one more serviceable is this: an intellectual habit enabling us to see in any given juncture of human affairs what is virtuous and what is not, and how to come at the one and avoid the other. It is to be observed that prudence, whilst possessing in some sort an empire over all the moral virtues, itself aims to perfect not the will but the intellect in its practical decisions. Its function is to point out which course of action is to be taken in any round of concrete circumstances. It indicates which, here and now, is the golden mean wherein the essence of all virtue lies. It has nothing to do with directly willing the good it discerns. That is done by the particular moral virtue within whose province it falls. Prudence, therefore, has a directive capacity with regard to the other virtues. It lights the way and measures the arena for their exercise. The insight it confers makes one distinguish successfully between their mere semblance and their reality. It must preside over the eliciting of all acts proper to any one of them at least if they be taken in their formal sense. Thus, without prudence bravery becomes foolhardiness; mercy sinks into weakness, and temperance into fanaticism.
No mention in there of marketing. In fact, when gay marriage passed in New York State, Cardinal Dolan was quoted in the NY Daily News as saying:
Cardinal Dolan revealed for the first time that the Catholic Church was caught flat-footed on last year’s gay marriage vote in New York — insisting it was “burned” by Senate Republicans who claimed it didn’t have a prayer.
“We got burned last year when we were told the redefinition of marriage didn’t have much of a chance — and of course it did,” Dolan told the Daily News as he prepared for Monday’s annual Albany lobbying trip.
“Our Senate leaders, we highly appreciated them being with us all along,” he explained. “When they kind of assured us it didn’t have much of a chance — not that we let up, but we probably would have been much more vigorous and even more physically present if we knew there was a chance.”
Perhaps. But activism built on an unevangelized church is like building a house on a foundation of sand. The truth is that a solidly evangelized Church would be much more resistant to the evangelists from the culture of death. As Chesterton observed, the man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. And that’s what has happened. A people who have been abandoned by their shepherds are being torn apart by the wolves. Now a chief shepherd chalks that up to “marketing”.
It was earlier this year that Cardinal Dolan, as the head of the USCCB, failed to lead any opposition to the Boy Scouts of America opening the doors to gay members. The silence from the Church leadership was deafening. The closest we came to any clerical position was a priest who claimed to be a member of the national Catholic Committee on scouting who debated me on FaceBook.
The priest claimed that the Church could not oppose such a move, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifies that no youth be barred from youth ministry because of their sexual orientation. While that is true, BSA is not a church ministry, but a national institution. The Church also failed to take the long view of the situation.
In accepting openly gay youth who will become Eagle Scouts, how can the organization then reject the same Eagle Scout as an adult leader when he turns 18? Yet the Church, while rightly not barring gay youth from ministry, will reject that openly homosexual young man when he applies to the seminary, or for a teaching position in a Catholic school. So, the Boy Scouts were hung out to dry.
That wasn’t a “marketing” issue either.
The truth is that there are a fair number of gay clergy. There are an even greater number who do not stand with the Church on abortion, contraception, or the right use of sex in marriage. So, these issues never get preached or taught, or when they do, it is the Magisterium that gets pilloried.
It wasn’t a marketing issue that has led to the disintegration of Western Civilization.
In the wake of Vatican II our seminaries descended into chaos at every level, with some earning the moniker of “pink palace,” so notorious were they for their homosexual subcultures. Many of those seminarians were ordained. When Pope Benedict XVI was elected to the Papacy he undertook an Apostolic Visitation of our seminaries to address this problem, among others.
Today we see the fruits of that chaos from the 60’s and 70’s, even the 80’s. We see the fruits of nonevangelization on our part and the fruits of the other side’s evangelization.
They have a positive view of themselves, of their lifestyle, and of their contribution to society. They preach that vision in season and out of season with a singularity of focus that resembles the singularity and tenacity of St. Paul the Apostle. They push and push and push. Then they push some more. They go into the schools, and businesses, and the public square. They preach in churches and synagogues, and in civic associations. They boldly challenge any who stand in their way, and took singular aim at Cardinal O’Connor, even going so far as desecrating the Eucharist in St. Patrick’s Cathedral.
Perhaps we could learn a lesson in evangelization from the other side, clergy and laity alike.
We weren’t outmarketed.
We were outevangelized.
That’s our great failure and our great shame.
On this First Sunday of Advent we ought to take stock of these failures, do penance, and begin the long, gritty work of a new evangelization.
Commentary on the HHS part of the interview here.
Holy clarity Batman! With this single essay, you have given us the means of moving about in the dark. Like being handed night vision goggles on the battlefield. We can see our enemy encamped around us. Evangelization? Evangelization. I can finally bear to hear that word which has been stripped of its pow!
Thank you for this truth as we begin Advent.
Great article, Gerard. Thanks. Sadly, we are living in a politicized world in which even our hierarchy, particularly US hierarchy, have fallen into the trap of seeing everything as political or perhaps more truly and accurately: it is political they have become and political who they are. Sad. Pray.
“They do not kick dead dogs.” Good advice I received once. The Dragon knew Jesus was God in the Gospel and he never ceased to doubt that or stop doing what he can to stomp JESUS and HIS BODY the CHURCH to death.
Well said, Gerard. Thank you for trying to wake us up.
[…] Read his entire response. […]
Hey Gerry, It’s Michael Voris. let’s talk. I believe you have my email. 😉
Hi Michael, Just sent you an email.
Great job! Thank you.
Amen.
It’s not evangelization if it rids the Church of those 85% who already don’t believe in the contraception edicts, or the 58% who support gay marriage.
The boys’ scout decision might be the wrong one, in your opinion, but just as the church had to choose between allowing women greater agency in civic life or hammering on their complete submission to the norms of the past and losing a generation of women whose self worth is not tied to the ability to produce a dozen children, the church will also have to choose whether it will guide this generation or become irrelevant.
There is a lot of wisdom and truth in the Church’s position, but there is also room enough between the two to address the issues in the times we live. The Church has changed significantly from the days of the inquisition, crusades and witch trails, and that’s just as well.
Gay people have an inherent dignity that’s God given and no different from anyone else. The claim that God created them inherently sinful, in thoughts, if not in deeds, makes little sense to 58% of Catholics and less so to children. The boy’s scout association had to choose between allowing gay children to come to God through them, or hardening the hearts of even more children against the church. It held out as long as it could.
Reblogged this on Chastisement 2013.
AliceAn,
I believe you need to come up to speed on the Church’s teaching on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. Click here.
Great does not begin to describe your post. Thank you and God bless. In the end of this age we stand like defenders at the Alamo. We know that defeat is assured but fight we must. We stand with Christ facing our time of trial.
This is very well stated – I hope the Cardinal reads it and ‘gets it’.
God bless you!
AliceAn, the homosexual condition is due to Original Sin. Death, disease, disorders, and all inclinations to sin are due to Original Sin.God did not create homosexuality as something good. I see God creating heterosexuality in Scripture, but not homosexuality. In addition, in both the Old and New Testaments all homosexaul acts are forbidden.
AliceAn, there is mounting evidence that pedophiles have a biological inclination toward pedophilia. Do these people have dignity because they are pedophiles or do they have dignity in spite of they being pedophiles? Same applies to homosexuals. We all have dignity because we are children of God, in spite of disordered inclinations.
YOU NAILED IT! Best commentary I have read in a long time. When a priest representing the group Courage was prevented from speaking at Cardinal Spellman HS, Dolan did nothing that has been popularly reported to reverse this. Anyone wearing the color of martyrs should have marched himself right down there and said that this school will not open until that priest is allowed to speak here. What we need more of is real men in the ranks of the clergy.
Like: “The man who stands for nothing will fall for anything!” – Chesterton
Let’s not forget the situation in the rest of New York State. Look particularly at the Diocese of Rochester–oh so “progressive” under the long reign of Bishop Matthew Clark, just what it is said the Church should be if she is to hold her people, but with the lowest rate of Sunday Mass attendance in the entire nation!!!
Hello, help me. As a mother and a person who loves the Lord and his church so very much, I try to live life pleasing to my savior. This issue on how to handle the gay lifestyle, has me lost. You love the sinner, hate the sin, gets you beat up out there. How I pray to the Lord for stronger, louder answers from His church.
You are right for the past 40 years most of our Bishops and their Diocese Priests have not been teaching the Faith whether it be: homosexual acts, contraception, euthanasia (next big governmental push), abortion, mortal sin, Hell, Scandal, Relativism, Heresy, Schism, or the requirement to go to Confession at least once a year, etc.
During the year of evangelization, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have asked us all to study the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”. Do you think the majority of US Bishops and their Priests have passed this on publically and frequently to reach as many Catholics as possible in order that people will know their Faith? – – – NOPE again. Everything we need to know is in the CCC.
Some Bishops are too busy looking for governmental hand-outs to keep their bureaucracies going, hob knobing with politicians etc. Rather than taking care of Saving Souls – for which they will be judged.
For quotes from Blessed Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and Pope Francis about the CCC – on the internet go to: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”. http://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
“Who am I to judge?”
[Your Holiness: Your given email address is popefrancis@vatican.com, but your IP address says Houston, Texas. Why did you move and not leave a forwarding address? Monikers are welcome, but quoting the pope out of context is not. While Francis said that regarding the repentant homosexual trying to live a chaste life, he still works for God, who COMMANDS the right use of sex according to HIS LAW. Get well soon. ~G.N.]
“Do these people have dignity because they are pedophiles or do they have dignity in spite of they being pedophiles? Same applies to homosexuals. We all have dignity because we are children of God, in spite of disordered inclinations.”
Good argument. Bad premise. (Also some bad grammar, but who cares.) The vast majority of people think that acting on pedophilia is wrong because children are necessarily victims. Homosexuals do not constitute “victims” in any readily comparable way, or as many people would define the term. My reading of her comment is that AlicAn is warning against that which you have done in making such a comparison, Jim, and the consequences to the longevity of the Church. Well, now you’ve both warned each other in your own ways. Father time is reading this blog, smoking his pipe, and smiling gently…
It’s worse than being out-evangelized, it’s not taking CINO politicians to task for their views and support; it’s not insuring that the Magisterium is taught correctly in ALL Catholic schools; it’s not ridding the Church of its gay clergy; and it’s not taking money from the Gates Foundation. I would add that there are many who have spoken up about these and other injustices within the Church, only to be ignored and, if working for the Church, let go – so there are many who stay because they need a job more than their integrity.
Logic, people, logic. What happened to logic! Love the sinner hate sin. We Christians adjust our feelings to a sound philosophy of living, modeled after HE who is the TRUTH. Not the other way around! Lets go back to basics, please. Remember in metaphysics the concepts of ontology and deontology? A rock is a rock. A man a man. A woman a woman. Period! You feeling to be a woman trapped in the body of a man, is not the truth. It is just a temptation you are failing to deal with. But of course you don’t have the armor. And because you have grown up to be such a deluded narcissists you dare to go into battle without it. We are at war gentlemen. It is a spiritual warfare. We need training and weapons if we are to prevail. This is a complex operation and the Church needs to be the coordinator. A sort of depot if you will.
Well said Manuel! Bad logic leads to bad philosophy which leads to bad theology.
Gerard, I worked up a little video that demonstrates the front end of the “evangelization” that the gay lobby has worked since 1978. To not take a stand on the abuse of the covenant rainbow is to invite passivity/toleration and welcome defeat.
Please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goMWSpcf-Ws
The image of Jesus Christ that is our inspiration:
The flag we should be flying higher than theirs:
Gerard, I worked up a little video that demonstrates the front end of the “evangelization” that the gay lobby has worked since 1978. To not take a stand on the abuse of the covenant rainbow is to invite passivity/toleration and welcome defeat. Please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goMWSpcf-Ws
There is little doubt in my mind that the Church will be greatly reduced in numbers but this will be a necessary process. Read the many Marian prophecies. There are few completely sound members of the hierarchy. Let ‘s pray for the coming purification process which WILL COME. It ‘s here now. Remain close to Our Lord and do what you know is right. Even Our Lord, as recorded in the Bible, asked the rhetorical question, “When the Son of man comes again, will he find faith on the earth?” What do you think is the answer? Stan, OCDS.
No matter what ‘laws’ pass there is the only the truth and the way. This does not include gays pretending to be husband and wife while living in sin. They know this and no matter how hard they fight and win in the courts they are still losing out for themselves.
pt 109, Homosexual acts are wrong because God says they are wrong, regardless of victimhood. Because homosexual acts with adults are not victimhood does not make it OK with God, so your basis for homosexuality’s immorality is wrong. My use of pedophilia was to show that disordered conditions with biological conditions exists. This includes pedophilia and homosexuality.
Cdl. Dolan always seems to me to be playing the court jester to the liberal radical establishment. And any time I see his ecclesiastical mug in any newspicture, why does it always seem to mt that he’s mugging for the camera, showing himself to be just a glad-handing, non-threatening prelate who wouldn’t harm a fly and would never venture an “opinion” on “gay marriage” (the quintessential oxymoron) that would “offend” anyone. In another context I took him to task for posing w/Pres. Obama on two occasions @ the Al Smith political dinner in N.Y., AND JUST SEEMING TO RELISH EVERY MOMENT WHEN AMONG THESE POLITICOS AT PLAYING NOT THE FOOL FOR CHRIST BUT THE FOOLISH CARDINAL AMONG A BUNCH OF UBER-SECULAR BLOWHARDS. He acted like he was one of them. Sorry, I think he was a DISASTER in his position in N.Y., as Mr. Nadal has so well delineated. Just what we DIDN’T need at this juncture of our national history, so fraught with catastrophic possible outcomes from so many areas of our sadly deteriorating and corrupted culture. Oh Holy Mary Immaculate, Co-Redemptrix of the human race, please pray for us, especially now when we so desperately need these prayers.
[Markrite, It was never my intention to insult, demean, or impugn Cardinal Dolan or any other bishop. They are Apostolic Successors and this article was a loving call for them to return to their Apostolic evangelical roots. ~G.N.]
Jim, I understand your point. It seems from my reading (given that I’m an “outsider”) that the Church’s living tradition and Scriptures are not by any means autonomous, and their interrelationship may appear to some as completely static. Others may see (even though it has been but a blink of Father Time’s eye) a slow, painful evolution in their relationship. I count myself in the latter group, but in so doing I do not flatter myself. I know I’m an idiot, plain and simple. But I trust my eyes to some extent, and evolution is what I see. So I restate my earlier observation that AliceAn is warning against that which you have done in making such a comparison, Jim, and the consequences to the longevity of the Church.
pt 109, sorry I basically disagree. Sounds to me she is implying God created homosexuality and that a person’s dignity is due to God’s creating homosexulity. However, Original Sin explains the existence of the homosexual condtion and all other disordered conditions (including pedophilia) even if there are biological components. Scripture teaching on morals became stricter with the coming of the Gospel. Jesus moves us close to God’s created intent. He forbids divorce, he says lust with the eye is adultery, He rasies the status of women. Accepting homosexuality as something good does not move us closer to God’s created intent. It regresses us further from God’s created intent even allowed in the Old Testament.
pt 109, The admonition against homosexual acts is repeated in the New Testament (1Cor & 1 Tim). When given the opportunity to ‘evolve’ with the coming of Jesus, the Holy Spirit kept homosexual acts as always immoral.
This comment by joker cardinal from NYC just leaves me with one gasp of incomprehension: clueless!!! like most of American hierarchy. They are playing on the others turf and think they can win. Nothing that comes from this man is remotely Gospel, biblical, religious, or theological. The pope should rent him out to Saturday night live in Mongolia. Such a pity of a cardinal.
[Bruno, It was never my intention to insult, demean, or impugn Cardinal Dolan or any other bishop. They are Apostolic Successors and this article was a loving call for them to return to their Apostolic evangelical roots. ~G.N.]
AlicAn and pt 109, this isn’t a numbers game. It’s about the truth. And let us not forget that the defense of marriage includes defending it against trends common among heterosexual and popularly supported among those calling themselves Catholic. (58% of WHOM exactly supports gay marriage? Of those who go to church at least every Sunday and who also go to confession regularly? Or of those who at least call themselves Catholic? The percentage you cite and church attendance undboutedly are inversely related.) For instance, divorce and remarriage, adultery, promiscuity, cohabitation, pornography, improper use of reproductive technologies, and all manner of sexual activities unbecoming people created in the image of God. Jim’s example would have been better served by comparing homosexuality to heterosexual promiscuity or adultery. Homosexuals are NOT being singled out here, and the presumption that they are proves the article’s main point. The truth at stake here is that two people of the same sex cannot have the kind of relationship that constitutes marriage, regardless of whether their relationship is has many attributes in common with marriage – just as cohabitating heterosexuals have a relationship that has a lot in common with marriage but is not marriage. Civil law is redefining words (just as George Orwell foresaw) and now has redefined “marriage” to include same-sex couples, just as civil law often recognizes “palimony” and property rights of non-married couples. Ontologically, what a married couple is and does cannot be attained by two people of the same sex, precisely because one of them is not the opposite sex, just as ontologically what a cohabitating couple does cannot be marriage precisely because by cohabitating they preclude being married. The Church is bound to propse this truth and defend it, and if people turn away, that’s up to them. This is not a numbers game. The Church will persist – its longevity pt 109 is eternal as long as it remains true to is mission to preserve, defend, and uphold the truth.
I think this author is right on. We must pray for courage for our priests and ourselves. Our bishops must not be afraid to die for the faith. Die- I mean die for lack of popularity, or connections. Money is not the only way to make progress for the poor. Teaching the Truth is much more important for freedom and progress for the poor. The money will follow.
Excellent article. Couldn’t agree more. Also, well said Miguel.
Jim, I agree with you there. But several tradition-Scripture consociations have evolved, certainly. Regarding the one in question, there have been constants, yet one may more readily distinguish subjectively between homosexuality and pedophilia; to wit, your friend AliceAn is not the eccentric she would have been a few millennia past. A trend? An anomaly? Ah, my life is but a blink of his eye. Just point me towards the nearest pizza parlor, and I don’t care who serves me, so long as they’re clean and polite. You’re most welcome to join me, Jim.
pt 109, please explain yourselve better. I am not sure what you are saying. Please simplify.
Of course there is a distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. But pro-homosexuals often claim homosexuality has a biological component and believe that to indicate that God created homosexuality and the condition is not disordered. Pedophilia may also have a bioligical component and yet is considered always disordered. All I am saying is that simply having a biological component does not make it God’s doing. Like death and disease, which have biological components, they are due to Original Sin.God says homosexual acts are always wrong and the Church continues to say this. The anus is physically structured for exit not entry. Entry causes trauma.Of course usuing vairous items mitiagtes this, but if something is from God and is good, why should such artificiality be required?
pt 109 Do you believe the Church should change its teaching on homosexuality such that it be considered as something good by the Church under certain conditions?
pt 109, can you give me examples of ‘consociations’ that have evoled such that they are moving away from the direction of conditions In the Beginning?
Authentic Bioethics,
We may assuage ourselves by sifting through the 58% of Catholics who support SSM and then begin to discount those who don’t go to Mass, or as you say, “divorce and remarriage, adultery, promiscuity, cohabitation, pornography, improper use of reproductive technologies, and all manner of sexual activities unbecoming people created in the image of God.” But they are the product of nonexistent evangelization.
As a scientist I’ve been trained to understand that discounting the data we don’t like is fundamentally dishonest. These folks are not mere data. They are the very children of God most in need of evangelization and catechesis.
They count most of all.
While I agree that there has been a great failure in evangelization, for many different reasons, I disagree that the bishops + priests in large measure have not provided forceful leadership on the issue of abortion. The call from the bishops has been clear for two decades, yet Catholics have largely ignored them, as reflected in their voting habits. The trumpet has been sounded but the faithful did not respond. Now, we are faced with gay marriage, and again the position of the Church is clear but many Catholics couldn’t care less. It is not so much a problem of leadership but of response.
[Most respectfully, Father, I must disagree. In 53 years I have heard less than 20 homilies on abortion, contraception, and homosexuality COMBINED. Where is this forceful leadership of which you speak? ~G.N.]
Jim, I don’t think the Church should treat homosexuality as good news under any conditions, and I’m not advancing a homosexual agenda here. Homosexuality is a mystery to me. As such, and per my nature, I’m more inclined to study it than condemn it (although with pedophilia I would do both). Regarding your other question, the Church’s malleable doctrine on slavery comes quickly to mind, but there are many other — perhaps better — examples. This is not the forum for me to translate my impressions into argument about such things. I am a learning guest here, am generally lazy, and am thankful for the discussion, Jim. Best wishes to you.
What is your “source” for the statistic “58% of Catholics approve gay marriage”?
Not even 10% of the more than 100 Catholics I know “approve” any such baloney as this.
[L.J. Baumer. Thanks for making me go back and check the stats. I had it wrong. According to a NY Times/CBS News Poll, it’s 58% of AMERICANS who support gay marriage, and 67% of Catholics who support it. We are above the national mean. Regarding the stats you cite, you have a very faithful circle of friends. God Bless, ~G.N.]
The “New Evangelization,” really evangelize what exactly? The Gospel according to Vatican II? What exactly is that? What does Catholic actually mean in today’s world? We are living in one of the greatest heretical times since possibly the Arians. The modernists have ripped the heart right out of the Church before our very eyes. (If you walk into the nave and you can’t find the tabernacle you know what I mean). Catholic once meant those that believed the entirety of the Gospel and were in union with the Bishop of Rome who proclaimed the True gospel. If you look at the Bishops in the Church today they claimed to be unified with Rome, which is seeking a mystical hermenutic of continuity to rationalize the insanity of the last 50 yrs. but how many practice and evangelize the same faith as the Church Fathers? I think the only thing the bishops agree on is the destruction of the Church through complete lack of proclaiming one, clear, unchanging Gospel. The Church is moving joyfully with the decisiveness and clarity of Mr. Magoo into oblivian. We need Athanasius and Nicholas not the “Lavander Mafia.” I would take one Bishop with a clue as to what Catholic truly means and has the spine to preach it in todays world. It doesn’t take any courage to say “who am I to judge”, “feed the poor”, look at me I’m just like you, “we were just out marketed, haha” . It does take courage to stand up to the evil that is the world and has invaded the Church. How about one Bishop with the stones to knock the stuffing out of one his brother bishop who is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, like old St. Nick did, that would be refreshing. Or somebody yelling BS when one of these Shepherds of the Church start preaching social justice. Catholic like American once meant something great, now it is meaningless and a joke to most of the world today. Thank you “spirit” of Vatican II, and thank you President Obama and to all that have supported them and are of like minds.
Pt 109, Slavery does not apply to the question I asked. I asked “ can you give me examples of ‘consociations’ that have evoled such that they are moving away from the direction of conditions In the Beginning?”
Slavery was not created by Christianity. It too was a consequence of original sin. Although scripture allowed slavery it did not mandate it. It was highly softened relative to pagan religions. There was no welfare state nor long term jailing facilities so slavery was sometimes necessary.. The direction of Scripture and Church teaching was away from slavery but in a non-violent manner. St. Paul shows the direction we should go relative to treating slaves. Calling for uprising would have resulted in cruel death and wars. The sufferings of slavery were compared to the sufferings of Christ and they should be endured for that reason. It was not considered something good in itself. The direction of Church teaching was toward conditions “In The Beginning” – before the Fall – before slavery. Allowing homosexuality does not move us toward pre-Fall conditions. So the analogy does not apply.
Thank you Dr. Gerard your words are much the same as contained in a book I published a few years back “Where Have All the Catholics Gone” available through Amazon or iUniverse. It received very little support as the goal of the Church in the U.S. is to seek “common ground” which seems to extend to include dogmatically non-negotiable matters. A priest friend of mine once said to me “Mike we are called to feed them, not count them.” I think Jesus would endorse that since that is the way he chose. Let us pray for our bishops and each other because we live in difficult times and we are in great need of the Holy Spirit.
Jim, I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear. Homosexuality has a biological basis that is undeniable, which doesn’t make it inherently “right” or “wrong.” All diseases and disorders have biological bases, as do their natural cures and immunities. So does an individual’s proclivity to play chess, admire redheads, or quote Marx (Karl, Chico, and Skid). But a Chess obsession, or a bad pun, doesn’t have a victim, per se; nor does homosexuality – your wonderful explanation of the directionality of the lower intestinal tract notwithstanding. Pedophilia’s act necessarily creates a victim. That is a moral distinction people are making with increasing starkness in our society. If one is dutiful to certain Scriptures, of course that will influence how he sees things, and the moral comparisons and juxtapositions he makes. It will also influence what one considers being “In the Beginning,” and any example of evolving consociations between Scripture and tradition (of actions, etc.) from that point of reference. Also, by definition, outsiders will have a different perspective on how certain doctrines will likely influence the longevity of a religion’s infrastructure, ideas and belief systems, or necessitate their evolution. Consider the adherents of Ashurism, whose moral certainty and sense of doctrinal permanence were unsurpassed. Our own cultural landscape is changing. Regarding the consequences of this change, I do not claim to know anything, and I’m sorry if I gave that impression. I see a stark distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia, and I was wondering how you arrived at making your own distinction. I think we understand each other on this point now, Jim. I respect your point of view, and again let me say that I’m not here to advance any homosexual agenda. Rather, I’m simply grateful for your time and for your thoughtful and friendly dialogue.
pt 109 I agree the biological basis does not make it right or wrong, yet I hear many pro-homosexuals saying it is right (from God) because it may have a biological basis. It doesn’t – that was my point.
Concerning the distinction between homosexuality and pedophlia – the Church’s teaching on sexual acts only allows sexual acts between one man and one woman when they are married in the eyes of God. – What God has joined together let no man put asunder. Both homosexuality and pedophilia are wrong as well as fornication, adultery, incest, bestiality. So I don’t make a distinction per se, I am against all these other things because they are outside of marriage as defined by God.
I find it strange that engaging in sexual acts that cause physical trauma would not be considered immoral. BTW, the same applies to anal sex between a man and a woman.
The Catholic basis for homosexual acts being immoral is because God’s says it is – it is not based on man’s rationale (victimhood). Christianity cannot contradict it’s position on doctrinal issues. It is revealed from God. It can gain deeper insights, but it cannot contradict that which was handed down from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Because other religions change their teaching does not follow that the Catholic Church will for they are guaranteed the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Church basis its belief on scriptures as well as Tradition. The Church’s position has said that homosexual acts are always wrong. It is Jesus, when discussing divorce and marriage, who makes the reference to “In the Beginning” in reference to marriage. That is where the Church takes its cue. Others are free to be believe what they like, but it is not the teaching of the Church and there is nothing that can change Church teaching on this.
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Jim, very good explanation, and very much appreciated. You’re someone I’d like to take a class with (Dr. Nadal too). If you don’t teach, you should think about it as a side-gig. By the way, I’ve read some good reviews of the book Fr. Mike Dolan refers to above (his own). Sounds like you’re in his camp, so to speak. Pleased to meet you here, Jim. Feel free to set me straight any time!
I think it would be useful to clarify how the questions on approval of SSM were asked. Did the survey distinguish between civil and sacramental marriage? It’s my sense, purely anecdotal, that while most Catholics would not oppose civil SSM, very few Catholics are even suggesting that the Church change its teachings that the sacrament of marriage is between a man and a woman.
Dr. Nadal……..Your side has already lost and no amount of “evangelization” is going to change the direction this country is heading in. In the next 5 years, marriage equality is going to become legal in most states in the Northeast, Midwest, and in the West. Here in Maine, I believe the majority of Catholics voted for marriage equality despite the opposition of the Bishop. And, in comparison to 2009, the Church mounted little opposition.
You are right about one thing. Those of us who believe in justice and equality for all individuals, regardless of gender, race, or sexual orientation are never giving up. We will push, push, and push.
There are two things happening here. (1) Dolan, and I think the current Pope, are good men, who, despite their personal holiness, ( much greater than mine ) do not appreciate how their message has been coopted by the language of the opposition. In their attempts to communicate and connect with the secular world, they adopt rules that effectively place them into the secularist ball park, playing by the secularist rules–the terms of art (marketing), the cliche’s (who am I to accuse…), the hotbuttons (trickle down economics)–these terms, this language, are all fashioned by the secularists. Even Fr Barron encourages his priests to read the secularist papers carefully, in order to ‘understand’ the culture. When you use these terms you put yourself at a distinct disadvantage. When you become immersed in the secularist frame of reference, you begin to sympathisize with it, and your ability to draw it back to Christ is diminished. Because both Benedict and JP2 were philosophers, they had a much deeper awareness of the power of language and appreciated its ability to govern the debate. (2) The contemporary Church requires that charity must be nice, and as a result it loses the ability to speak with complete candor, and this comes across as cowardice. One of the things that strikes me about the Church Fathers (e.g., Augustine, John Chrysostum, Clement of Alexandria) are their withering attacks upon the pagans of their day. These fathers were very careful always to play by their own rules and not the pagan’s rules. This was their evangelization–very pointed, unmistakable, not very nice, but ultimately very effective.
Dear New Englander,
No doubt the country, and all of western civilization is being changed in the direction you describe. And you are probably correct in your belief that the Church at this time is not up to the task of reversing the course of things. That being said, you must understand that the country is dying, it is committing suicide. I am in the mental health business, and see every day what is happening to the spirit of the people; NIH statistics bear out my impression, and the impressions of many of my colleagues. There has been untold suffering caused by the “sexual revolution”. One might put pretty labels on it such as “justice” and “equality”, the courts can declare their rights, but it does not change the fact that we are witnessing the slow suicide of a nation. It is much like the abortion issue–one can claim a right, the courts can affirm it, and at the end of the day you have one corpse, a severely relieved girl, and a severely guilty girl who has just tripled her chances of developing a mood disorder. People can now pick their gender and change their sex organs, but they cannot change human nature. You and those who believe as you do are suffering a delusion. Fifty years ago, virtually every psychiatrist in the country would have called the desire for sex reassignment delusional, because it is. Thirty years ago, even after the APA changed its rules for diagnosis, most psychiatrists still thought that homosexual behavior constituted a mental disorder. Today, the sexually liberated men and women and their children, are at the head of the list of the mentally unstable; they suffer from extremely high levels of depression, anxiety, and anger. The country is going mad, all in the name of equality and justice.
pt 109, thank you for the kind words. I hate to disappoint you, but I am just a regular guy with a family who works in accounting. Please to have met you also.Your questions/comments were fair with no personnal attacks. I admire that..
Rick, you make great points in a world where teleprompters and hidden earphones rule the mass media. Virtue has been exterminated. Nebulous meaningless values (family values, Christian values, etc) are championed as the high ground for our lost age. The structures of so-called civilized society are now rigged against protecting human dignity (e.g. abortion and euthanasia laws (Liverpool protocol)). There is a need to get out of this filthy, disease infested trench, a need for a breakout and a rush (guided by the Holy Spirit) across No-Man’s land to the one light that saves, Jesus Christ.
I will post this again, if I was to carry a banner in this battle I think it would have look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JCLLL.PNG
Reblogged this on Catholic4Life.
Rick,
I beg to differ with you. This country is going in the right direction. I see this in my church (the Episcopal church) and in the city/state in which I live. We are heading toward a society in which the concept of sexual orientation is recognized and individuals with minority sexual orientations are treated with respect and are seen as equal under the law. Today the majority of psychiatrist and psychologists do not consider homosexuality a mental disorder. It is seen as biologically-based and as normal as left-handedness. Similarly, it is recognized that some individuals internal gender does not match their external gender. Thankfully, these transgender individuals now have the possibility of gender-reassignment surgery.
By the way, homosexuality does not imply a promiscuous lifestyle. My parish has several committed gay couples who head the parish soup kitchen, who lead Sunday school, who are active on the social justice work, etc. Among these individuals, I suspect, mental illness is no more prevalent than among the general population. But it is a different situations for those gay individuals who are closeted, or who have been rejected by their families and their churches (Catholics, Baptists, Mormons). Among these individuals, I have no doubt that the incidence of depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicide is high. Those families and those churches have blood on their hands.
Let’s make sure we share the blame for this failure with our pre-Vatican II brothers and sisters. One can only evangelise a culture through a coherent world-view over generations. The individualists have (or ‘nominalists’)been very successfully using modern knowledge of nature to deconstruct “human nature” at least since the seventeenth century.
The problem is obvious. Vatican II refused to condemn error and the enemies of the Church. Meanwhile, the enemies of the Church have not rested in condemning the teachings of Jesus Christ and condemning Catholics, no matter their station in the Church.
The Vatican II church leaders surrendered… no, rather, they committed treason.
[David, I’m pretty tolerant of a great deal in the com boxes, and sometimes it gets pretty feisty here, however, Vatican II was a duly constituted Council of the Church, presided over by Peter’s successors and the successors of the Apostles, all legitimately ordained bishops and abbots. That is simply not open to debate here, and if it becomes an issue, I simply shut it down. I’m not about to argue fundamentals such as gravity or the earth being round. If a duly constituted Council of the Church committed treason in your eyes, get yourself some serious spiritual counseling and direction. You are in error. If you persist in this error, you become a heretic. I’m sorry that the Holy Spirit didn’t anticipate your agenda at Vatican II. Perhaps He’ll reveal all as you progress through eternity. Best! ~G.N.]
[…] Coming Home blog because he’s written something for the pro-life movement. But I found this response to the Catholic Leader Cardinal Dolan exasperatingly true. I am not Catholic (although I thought about it for a while), but after […]