In recent videos Church Militant TV founder, Michael Voris, has ended his “Vortex” segments by stating that the time has come for an “authentically Catholic uprising.” That Michael has been calling out many of the bishops for less than stellar shepherding in the face of an aggressive secularism and the rise of an even more hostile homosexualist agenda is nothing new. Such is the case with the criticism of Cardinal Dolan over his welcoming attitude of an out and proud homosexual group being allowed to march under their own banner at this St. Patrick’s Day Parade. They will be led by the parade’s Grand Marshall, Timothy Cardinal Dolan, right past St. Patrick’s Cathedral. See Voris’ criticism in the video below:
Michael has crossed a line: A very dangerous line.
Calling for the abdication of Cardinal Dolan and many other non specified bishops, coupled with the stern admonition that the time has come for an, “authentic Catholic uprising,” has the potential to incite passions in those who might not be as stable as one would hope. Consider this line from his commentary:
“Do not think the punishment visited on you will not be of the most severe sort when you die, perhaps even before you die, if you do not change.”
Michael needs to walk this one back: Way, WAY back. At this point Cardinal Dolan would be right to wonder at the intention behind that statement. It sounds like a veiled threat.
It would be helpful if Michael operationally defined what that uprising looks like to him. What is an authentically Catholic uprising in the 21st Century?
Letter writing campaign to the Apostolic Nuncio?
Protests outside of the Chancery or Cathedral?
Withholding offerings?
Novena marathons?
Intercessory prayer chains?
WHAT???
When one poses with a sword, critiques constantly, and starts calling for authentically Catholic uprisings, it is time for some soul-searching. This is most especially true in light of Canon Law:
Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites his or her subjects to hatred or animosity against the Apostolic See or the Ordinary because of some act of ecclesiastical authority or ministry, or who provokes the subjects to disobedience against them, is to be punished by interdict or other just penalties.
Those of us who write or who have other platforms in media have a duty, in love, to offer commentary on our bishops when they cross a line. I have done so only a few times because a bishop’s authority comes down to him from Jesus, through the Apostles. That is a dread reality with which to contend. Authentic Catholic critique must always call the people to pray for the bishop, to mortify themselves if necessary for the bishop’s sake.
Calling the faithful to non-specified acts of uprising for the sake of a bishop’s soul places the souls of those engaging in uprising in danger: hence the reason for Canon 1373. It places Michael’s soul in equal peril.
If Cardinal Dolan (God forbid!) ends up going to hell, he’ll go there with his eyes wide open (as do all who end up in hell). There are more than enough of us who have cried out at key moments in his time here as archbishop. What is needed is prayer for the bishops, and sacrifice. There needs to be less bashing and more catechesis, more instruction in right living.
More humility.
If zeal for the House of the Lord causes the weak in faith who listen to Michael to fall away out of disillusionment, will he not bear responsibility for that? Regarding the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, Jesus told the people to do what they tell them, but don’t do as they do.
I’m not picking that up in Michael’s broadcasts.
It’s Michael’s shop over at Church Militant TV, so unsolicited advice is usually never an occasion of joy. However, he needs to walk this uprising thing back all the way, before something bad happens. In walking it back, Ephesians 4 contains the dynamic tension of Paul calling for purity, begging for unity, and admonishing that our anger should be without sin.
Calling for an unspecified uprising, coupled with calls for bishops’ abdications, all in light if Canon 1373 can rightly be adduced to be an example of righteous anger that has morphed into sin. It foments disrespect and disobedience, and quite possibly even violence among those on the lunatic fringe who gravitate toward watering holes for the dissatisfied.
Michael Voris is a genuinely good man who is bigger and better than that. His programming seems to have taken a dark turn and needs to reflect more of his goodness and far less of his anger, to adhere to Paul in 1 Thes 5:
[12] But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
[13] and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.
[14] And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
[15] See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.
[16] Rejoice always,
[17] pray constantly,
[18] give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
[19] Do not quench the Spirit,
[20] do not despise prophesying,
[21] but test everything; hold fast what is good,
[22] abstain from every form of evil
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Photo Credit: Photo via http://www.newemangelization.com/michael-voris/discussion-with-michael-voris/
Dr. Gerard, you’re over thinking this… Michael Voris has a platform of action, you have a platform of talk. Both are appreciated, both are important, but just because you find canon law that suits your interpretation of Michael’s shtick, does not mean that it fits. Without the Mother Angelica’s, Michael Voris’ etc of the word, we would continue to be apathetic little sheep hoping and praying in our little cubby holes with no action. Everyone has their calling. If you don’t like Michael’s style, don’t listen to him. God loves courageous children. He knows, intimately, the intentions of our hearts and he will straighten all crooked lines we create through out good intentions and love for HIM. God is good all the time.
My question here is where does Michael Voris get his authority from? The truly concerning aspect of Voris is that he is self-appointed as a critic of the Catholic church.
Rosalinda,
We all have our platforms, but mine is not to usurp the judgement throne of God and declare who is, or is not, going to Hell. Michael and I were seminary classmates, and I know the man fairly well. I have also admired him as a serious student and a man of true compassion. He’s one of the genuine good guys, and that’s why I wrote this. His comments about what Cardinal Dolan will suffer after death , and possibly before,could be viewed as a veiled threat and have crossed a line, a very, very serious line.
Excellent points all, Gerard. Thank you for this, written with both charity and clarity.
Michael Voris is over the top BUT we are still disappointed in our bishops sometimes. Granted, it is not easy to assert moral authority and be pastoral at the same time.
Bravo, Gerard!
As a clear response to Cardinal Dolan’s awful endorsement of the homosexual community as Grand Marshall, I suggest that the Faithful in his diocese, when asked for a contribution to the diocesan Catholic Charities Campaign, mail in a St. Patrick holy card to the chancery.
Remarkable how quickly men will dispense with the scriptures to please men. Canon Law-man’s law-is for the good of souls and in support of the mission of the Church. The law serves man, not the other way around. The law is not designed to protect heretical, or even just scandalous prelates.
Voris-any Catholic who repeats the teaching of the Church-speaks not with his own authority but repeats, like a street sign, the truth that comes not from him but from God.
When did Catholics become ultramontanists?
Honestly, I am not educated enough to know whether Michael Voris’ approach is right or wrong. However, I do know that there is something wrong. Something is wrong when a majority of “Catholics” vote for the most pro-abortion president in history. Something is wrong when pro-abortion politicians like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and Andrew Cuomo are “Catholics in good standing.” Something is wrong when a American Cardinal says that the “culture wars are over!” This as millions of babies continue to be killed every year. Maybe the approach that Voris takes might be wrong? I don’t know. But with the confusion among the faithful and lack of clarity coming from catholic leaders, maybe a voice like Michael Voris is needed.
“Authentic” Catholics. It’s a label that lends itself to pitting the Faithful against one another over minor issues. Yep, the Cardinal is off base, we should pray for him and a lot like him. Turning the Church into an exclusive club for self proclaimed saints is definetly NOT acceptable.
Look at Nadal mock Voris with the picture at the top. Lost of lot of respect for Nadal, resorting to Mark Shea tactics. Move aside u l@&#$*&#%^#%$!!, the men are speaking up !!!
[Content edited. My house, Robert. Gotta keep it clean. But I get your point. I’m less than a man for using a photo that Mike has released for his own promotional purposes. I guess you never did well with critical thinking skills in school. Get well soon. ~ G.N.]
You’re using the photo to mock MV. and Inferring that MV was inciting violence? Are you on the USCCB payroll Nadal? Like Kandra, Shea and Scalia?
RobertJ,
I get paid by nobody for my blogging. Michael and I were classmates in the seminary and have had a warm and cordial email exchange over this. My use of his photo shows his M.O., the gladiator at war with… whom? Increasingly it would seem the bishops. You’re an ass who is injecting all kinds of crap that doesn’t exist in my relationship with Michael.
If you’ve actually bothered to read Deacon Kandra’s FB thread, you would have read my defense of Michael. You were right earlier, the men are in conversation. Michael and I are both passionate men of honor, with high regard for one another stemming from our time as classmates. We can disagree with one another without losing respect for each other. A lesson you obviously never learned.
So now do me a favor and get lost. I don’t need paranoid, obnoxious little boys stinking up my blog with ad hominems because their hero had someone disagree with him in a blog post.
I’d love to be on the USCCB payroll. But, alas, this conspiracy theory–like so many others indulged by the laptop bombardiers in the ranks of the Greatest Catholics of All Time as they battle the imaginary Church of Nice–is without foundation. It turns out I say that things I say because I think them true and not because I’m fed filthy lucre by the bishops. The paranoia which sees every critique of the Greatest Catholics of All Time as due to conspiracy starts to sound adolescent after a while. Consider the possibility that there is no Evil League of Evil out to get you, RobertJ. It’s just that a some people think that not subtly suggesting that some kind of harm should come to Dolan is, well, reckless and, what’s that word? Oh yeah: wicked.
got to say that i’m really really glad that it’s God the Father who will judge me and my intentions rather than Michael Voris. this is one of the first videos that i’ve ever seen of Michael Voris and just a few quick and unorganized thoughts i get from it is… starting out with image from the Extraordinary form of the Mass tells me alot about the approach that he’s going to take. it almost seems like he’s borderline extreme FSSP Latin Mass is good and Novus Ordo is bad. it almost seems like he’s judging Dolan and other’s internal conscience and intentions by watching what externally they are doing. many other things come to mind but the thing i really wish Voris would have said is to pray for their bishops and priests. oh well
I don’t follow Voris anymore. It was my understanding that his Bishop restricted himself from calling his apostolate Catholic? Or maybe it was himself? I don’t remember. He is following the footsteps of Fr Corapi who, in turn, followed the footsteps of Martin Luther. Pride swelling the ego leading to a crusade against the Church to defend one’s interpretation of Truth which is infallible simply because our ego insists so.
I thought Michael Voris showed humility with his video about not criticzing the Pope in the public square…….I loved it when he said, “Unless you are a puss dinking self renouncing saint like St.Catherine of Sienna, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself.”
Now I know that may seem hypocrytical of Michael but He was speaking of the Pope and how criticizing him is the same as criticizing the Church herself.
Now if you take into context all of his videos and commentary then I see humility and boldness. If we divide them up and pick out this or that, it seems tom me that we are acting like the protostants and liberals; picking and choosing verses and not taking the context or book as a whole.
I personally think it IS about time for an authentic Catholic uprising. What wth the ISIS trying to take over the world(again) and our own church filled with these wolves in sheeps clothing…..I do not think it would be amiss to take up arms like in olden times and be crusaders once again…..Yes prayer is the most powerful weapon(especially the Rosary) but that didn’t stop Pius V from sending out war ships against the muslims/heretics. It was prayer combined with action that God worked through the church to make her so great and majestic in all her glory
I respectfully disagree with your aritcle, even though you mad very good points. I personally think Michael Vorris was right in calling out Cardinal Dolan for his dispicable actions..
In JMJ
I agree with Robert, please step aside you cowards.
[I have a good idea, Kathy. Why don’t you not come back to this blog if all you can do is name call. Is this the fruit of Michael’s ministry, people like you and Robert who have no substance, just ad hominems? Have you read this blog? Have you read the articles where I take Cardinal Dolan to task over several issues? No. You haven’t. You just show up, puke and call it an argument. Get lost, and get well soon. ~G.N.]
The issue isn’t whether or not Michael called out Cardinal Dolan on the parade issue. I did too. Read it here. Then read this article again.
What’s fascinating is how closely folks like Kathy and RobertJ follow the smear tactics Voris teaches them to deploy. They repeat, without thought or question, the lie that anybody charged with being a member of the Church of Nice is somehow a gutless money-grubbing whore on the payroll of the USCCB. No evidence is necessary. It must be true because Voris said so. His smear of people like Karl Keating, Jimmy Akin, Al Kresta and sundry other innocent people as people who have prostituted themselves for money from the bishops was absolutely without foundation, yet his devoted followers continue to repeat that smear about anybody they have decided to designate as an enemy. This is not mature Catholic faith. This is adolescent idolatry and cult of personality stuff. If some hero worshipper decides to act on Voris reckless and dangerous suggestion, he won’t be able to get away (as is his custom) with denying he said what he obviously said, nor with blaming everybody else for hearing him say it. The man has more authority than the pope with his cult of personality. He needs to issue a clear retraction of this wildly irresponsible video.
If you truly believe that Michael is inciting violence you are crazy. He is not calling for violence. It also shows that you don’t know Michael. That fact that Mark “King of Smears” Shea is in agreement with you says all you. I find it particularly interesting how he is constantly arrogant and smug, as he is here with his “not mature Catholic faith” and “adolescent idolatry and cult of personality” comments.
[David, Let me be clear. Michael and I were classmates in the seminary for a year. We studied, prayed, worked, laughed, fought, drank, and took meals together. I have immensely high regard for him and have not hesitated saying that here and on other people’s blogs and FB accounts. Further, he and I have had a very frank and cordial email exchange over this. I’ll say it again, Michael Voris is one of the genuinely good guys.
That being said, I have told Michael that his words mean one thing to an Emmy Award-winning journalist with an STB from Rome, but might mean something else to some individual who exists on the margins. Those of us with public platforms must be very, VERY cautious about our selection of words precisely because we deal with matters that excite passions in people who may not be very stable.
I’ve had all of this explained to me by the FBI when I reported an individual for sending me death threats. It’s serious business. If that offends you, too bad. I genuinely admire Michael, even if I believe that his messaging is far more harsh in its tone than I would engage in. If I’m the only one that tells him this, then that’s all to the good.
I don’t idolize Michael as many of his listeners do. I respect him as a brother. Now, you are the third Voris acolyte to show up here and engage in name-calling. This tree of his seems to be yielding a bumper crop of bad fruit this year. If that’s all you have as substance, get lost, and get well soon. ~G.N.]
Mr. Nadal,
I read your article and you make some very good points. I have Mr. Voris for a while and I do not think he would make any kind of threats at all. He is not that kind of a person.
I am more troubled that one commentator, a priest, would make the following statement: “…starting out with image from the Extraordinary form of the Mass tells me alot about the approach that he’s going to take.” From a priest, this is a more troubling statement than a layperson ranting about Cardinal Dolan. It would lead me to conclude that those who attend the EF or a associated with the FSSP are pharasaical. Generalizations about people’s dispositions because of what Holy Mass is depicted or attended is unwarranted and unkind.
Mark, I love how the acolytes come here and puke all over the page, throwing me in with the “evil bishops.” Too bad they don’t poke around to see the pieces I have written that call the Cardinal to task. What is lacking in their camp is any program of sustained catechesis that one can help wayward friends tune in to. In the eyes of Michael’s followers I am not an authentic Catholic.
I’m weak, and liberal.
Me. ME. ME!!! LIBERAL!!! So where does that put Michael’s followers on the spectrum if I’m a weak liberal????
That’s the problem here. I’m guessing that the bishops are choosing to ignore Michael and his followers. I think that’s a mistake. Being authentically Catholic means showing some respect for these guys. It means celebrating what they do right, and not only their gaffes. It above all means praying for them, which is why we’re in the middle of a novena for Dolan here.
Am I authentically Catholic? Yes, I received all of my sacraments of initiation. I’m a full member of the clan (Even a 4th Degree KOC, and Holy Name Society member).
So are you, and Voris, and his followers, and your followers, and most of the denizens of Coming Home. That’s not the issue. The issue is whether we strive to live the Gospel in our daily lives. Fr. Benedict Groeschel told me once that the sins against sex are the most humiliating, but the sins against charity are the most damning. Something we all need to keep in mind when blogging and calling for hellfire on our brothers and sisters. I’ve run several novenas here for some high profile Catholics as the antidote to pride. I have my own grab bag of sins that keep me humbled before God. We need to offer public correction on our blogs, but we all had better do it with our own sinfulness in mind. That kinda takes the sharper corners off of our commentary.
I must say that I do disagree with the article, although you bring up good points which are good for consideration…I do believe that he (Voris) is looking at things from an objective view point, and when he’s speaking to the actions of Cardinal Dolan, he’s looking at them with objectivity and not trying to read Cardinal Dolan’s soul…(God knows how sinful we all are as individuals)…the call for abdication, I agree with based upon the repeated actions of Cardinal Dolan, for this is not the only time he’s capitulated to the culture, it’d be one thing if it was his first time doing this, but it’s hardly the first time…It’s quite frustrating from the top down, (save a few good ones) where we have capitulation and surrender from our Bishops (we of course should be praying for them daily..and I suggest everyone here to do a Holy Hour for Cardinal Dolan on Sunday)…I sense you agree with the substance of what Voris had to say, but not the manner of communication and there’s one piece you would have left off…Having suffered in Cardinal Mahony’s archdiocese for years…I get the anger, and why he (Voris) needs to say it…But both words and action need to be done together…charity does not always mean kindness, and likewise just because we’re compassionate does not always imply charity….Pax Tecum Dr
Gerard: This is *the* modus operandi of Michael Voris. He *pretends* to bravely attack progressive dissent in the Church. In reality, what he consistently does–and trains his cowardly followers to do–is attack faithful Catholics disobedient to no precept of Holy Church and smear them *as though* they were progressive dissenters. You just blasphemed the Idol, so now you are getting the Treatment too. The hilarious thing is that outside the Bubble of St. Blogs Conservative Catholic circles, the real progressives, dissenting and not, have never heard of him and pay almost no attention to him. The only thing I could find on him over at the Reporter is a brief mention by Michael Sean Winters *defending* his right to speak in Scranton. Beyond that, nothing.
A couple of years ago, a Deacon I know out in your neck of the woods was in an elevator with some priests just as Corapi was imploding. He said, “So, this Corapi thing is a mess, eh?” Their response: “Who?”
Outside the suffocating hothouse of internet Greatest Catholics of All Time, the figures St. Blogs tends to regard as hugely important are almost invisble to ordinary Catholics in the pews (and to a lot of clergy and the episcopacy). I woulld not be a bit surprised if Dolan has never heard of Voris. On the other hand, what matters is not that Dolan has heard of Voris. What matters, as you rightly note, is that one of Voris’ drooling acolytes not decide to take matter into his own hands and rid him of this meddlesome cardinal as Voris recklessly suggests. Kennedy never heard of Oswald either.
Meantime, keep up the good work! Only an idiot would call you a liberal. And who cares what an idiot thinks?
It should be clear to all that He never called for violence, hatred, or the death of anyone. His comment “perhaps even before you die” was clearly meant to reference the state of Dolan’s soul, and an “authentic Catholic uprising” is clearly meant to encourage people to speak out not lash out violently.
And seriously, who are you talking about when you refer to Voris’s “followers?” You don’t need to be a “Voris follower” to know that video called out something that needed to be called out. If there is a violation against charity, you are the one committing it by distorting what he said and by rashly judging his internal dispositions.
Oh and don’t give me that nonsense about “you should pray for him.” I pray for my Bishop and priests every day, and I’m sure Voris does too for his. He never said you shouldn’t pray for them, in fact I believe he has called for us to pray for Dolin on at least one occasion.
He wasn’t inciting violence or hate, and it seems clear that you have an agenda by making it seem as though he did. Anyone with a brain could watch that video and know this.
Oh and to FrChristopher Miller and Mark Shea, don’t worry, God the Father most certainly will judge us all on the last day, when all will be laid bare.
[“Anyone with a brain…” Now you are the 4th Voris acolyte to show up with the name-calling. Read my extended comments below. Get well soon. ~ G.N.]
Everyone, let’s please calm down. Michael Voris & Gerard Nadal are longtime friends–I am sure their behind-the-scenes discussion will bear fruit. I am also certain it is nowhere near as bitter as much of the conversation in these comments.
As a producer at ChurchMilitant.TV, I can vouch for Michael’s personal integrity, and also that he absolutely did not intend any violence towards Cdl Dolan–or towards anyone, for that matter–nor did he intend to incite any hatred or animosity towards him. I also admire Dr. Nadal for his uncompromising stance on pro-life issues and his orthodoxy. He has not minced words with regard to his disappointment with Cdl. Dolan and his scandalous behavior in the past. And Dr. Nadal is certainly NOT a liberal.
God bless.
Christine Niles
[Thank you for your kind words, Christine. Our conversations haven’t been bitter at all: quite the opposite, actually. God Bless. ~G.N.]
[“Anyone with a brain…” Now you are the 4th Voris acolyte to show up with the name-calling. Read my extended comments below. Get well soon. ~ G.N.]
I lol’ed. Now I have to go back to class, recess is over.
[James has been blocked for acting like an adolescent. I really don’t care about blog traffic and numbers of hits. This is a place for people who function like mature adults. All others are cordially invited to get lost and puke elsewhere. Thank you. ~ G.N.]
Mrs. Niles, Thank you for your comment. It was very much needed.
Mr Shea, You do no good here. Your insults are worst than what you allege against Mr. Voris and his supporters.
Mr. Nadel, You opened up a can of worms and I’m beginning to think that you cannot handle as moderator, but I’d say stick with charity and this thread might have a positive outcome. But go the other way …see the 2nd entry.
To the clergy, Really? Why are you here? We already have one Dolan; oh yeah and a McCarrick (what kind of Catholic makes a statement like he did yesterday?…sure Ab Dolan that’s who), we don’t need anymore.
[Tom, It’s very easy to handle this as a moderator. There are plenty of messages that I simply do not approve, and which never see the light of day. I have a simple rule here. My blog is an extension of my dining room table and guests here are expected to comport themselves as though at Sunday dinner in my home.
I’m not interested in boors and I have never suffered fools very well. That said, I have regulars here whose positions on abortion and everything else are polar opposite to mine. I welcome dialogue, but I must insist on a certain degree of decorum, or else I throw people out. I’ve seen the boors make many blogs radioactive wastelands. That will not happen here. So, no can of worms. God Bless 🙂 ~G.N.]
I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is putting the way someone says something ahead of what one says. Surely, it’s an annoying factor. And I do find the delivery of Vortex messages very annoying. But as Catholics, it does not dispense any of us from ignoring the message if it is true. We are to look for truth. We are to collect all truth. And we are to integrate all truth. But to be true to our calling, we must be “pastoral.” As Catholics, we must not put ourselves in the position of giving a final judgement of a soul. None of us are God. None of us has that right. In our charity (from the heart) we endeavor not to destroy a person, but to help the person journey back to the integrity that God intends for each of us. So, while the Vortex has facts to consider, it goes over the edge in giving a final judgement on a person’s soul. Every person deserves that just by virtue that he or she exists because of God. Every person is an object of Christ’s Redemption. St. Paul was very direct too! But never did one hear him pronouncing final judgement. Would it not be more in God’s will to help raise a successor to the Apostles to his level of integrity through truth rather than threat? God gives us all opportunity and position by virtue of our baptism and the following sacraments. While Michael’s criticism is very calid and should not be ignored, it might be more helpful for the kingdom if he removed that beam in his eye too. But that takes humility. Only he knows if he has it.
Really enjoyed this article and Fr. Amaro’s comment. I also had immense trouble with some of the choice words that Michael used; it truly scared/scares me.
Having dealt with a bishop in the past, whom I had to approach and both respectfully and charitably correct his misunderstanding of Scripture, was a unique experience. During a retreat, in a morning talk he said things that were erroneous, but after our short lunch conversation, he I watched go before the same crowd of 500 people and acknowledge his previous faulty teaching. Although he had shown ignorance of the meaning of Jesus’ words, the actions that followed proved that he was also a man of great humility and courage.
Therefore, over the years I have learned that charity and patience go much farther than bashing. Prayer will pour grace into that soul, while bashing will most likely harden the heart. It is our duty to call our shepherds to be courageous and faithful to their calling, just as Paul did with Peter, but the moment we forget to be merciful, we forget that it will be the same measure of mercy that we will receive; not a good prospect.
I also read your other article critical of Cardinal Dolan to which you provided a link above. I found it to have strong words of insight and accountability, but always with charity in mind and heart. Looking forwards to reading other articles from you.
Perhaps, Dolan is “just the most misunderstood bishop” in the USA
What would Francis think of these latest videos?
It could be embarrassing for Voris.
For the people new here, a reminder of commenting guidelines here at Coming Home. This blog is an extension of my dining room table, and I welcome all perspectives. But you need to comport yourself as though a guest at Sunday dinner in my home. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
I realize that there is a running street fight between Michael Voris followers and Mark Shea followers that has spilled into my living room and dining room, but I warn you:
In here you cut the crap with ad hominem attacks or I’ll bounce you out the door. Discuss the issues with something that befits the gravity and dignity of the topic at hand.
Thank you.
(Will someone please pass the mashed potatoes?)
“…a running street fight between Michael Voris followers and Mark Shea followers…”
Yep, and how many folk stop to think who is best served by that sort of internecine knife fight? Hint: It ain’t the Holy Trinity.
Hi all,
My name is Don and I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I came into the Church Easter Vigil 2008. Now before all of you cradle Catholics dismiss me as a no nothing wanna be Catholic like so many of you have. Let me say to you that my conversion in my early to mid fifties was born out of 30 plus years as a student of Scripture and in part from ordained ministry and my seminary training. Though I am no Cardinal Newman my experience was very similar to his via the early Church fathers. I know what I believe and why I believe it.
Upon my arrival I knew that I was finally home and had found what I had been looking for the whole of my Christian experience. Unfortunately I found that the Catholic Church was not much different than any Protestant denomination I have ever been associated with. I was and still am appalled by such sin in the Church as homosexual priests and compromise in the bishopric. Ravenous wolves crept in to prey upon the innocent young boys of our faith are the real reason for the sex and abuse scandal. How many young girls were molested in comparison? What was the USCCB’s response? They covered it up and had to pay for all the law suits with the money given by hard working men and women of the Church. They squandered the gifts given to God. In addition they Imposed more formation for priests and ignored orders from Rome to fix it. A pig is still a pig after washing. Academic qualification has replaced Holiness of life it seams to me. The problem continues in the priesthood because some have dodged the screening that would have stopped all of this scandal. Get a copy of Good Bye Good Men and you can see for yourself. I forget the author but the work is well documented. I know a few isolated instances of this first hand because of circles I used to be a part of.
The gospel of social justice has replace the gospel of the Kingdom. Good works and caring for the poor born out of gratitude for our salvation to be revealed have been snubbed by a political agenda that is merely socialistic. Gods plan has never been to change the world but rather save sinners out of the world that is perishing. In Holy Writ there are two political entities. The first is Babylon and Nimrod, The second is the City of God and the Christ, God’s anointed one. One’s eternal destiny is determined by which type you hold to. When it appears that our bishops or the majority of then prefer Nimrod how are the faithful to react? The most ignorant, uninformed, and uneducated catholic that is faithful is wiser than the smartest, most educated, and faithless man that walks the face of the earth. The bishopric exists for only two reasons. The first is to administer the sacraments, and second to equip the flock for the work of lay ministry. If they fail in the duty entrusted them how will souls be saved? When the children cry for bread and get a stone what are we to do? Just go along? I don’t think that I will be able to stand in my personal judgment and say well Lord you know I was only doing what I was told, so I sat down and shut up.
Our faith is not one of convenience. It was brought down from heaven by the second member of The Blessed Trinity, The Only Begotten Son Of God, God from true God, Light from True Light… Our faith is one that must be accepted in toto or rejected in toto. There is no room for opinion other than Orthodoxy when it comes to dogma. Sin is sin, hell is hot, and heaven is high. As a former Protestant I still have trouble understanding Mother Mary as co-redemptive but I believe it and as time and study goes by I get more and more comfortable knowing she is my mother because she is the mother of the Church. The only reason I am still a Catholic is because I have learned the Truth of God. I am not a Catholic because of great leadership I am Catholic because of its Founder. We will always have the Judas within our ranks but the Church will prevail because Christ promised it would not fail. We need to ask ourselves some hard questions. Especially when I see fellow catholics call each other names such as cowards and let that kind of filth come out of their mouths on a public forum for the world to see and read. Especially when contraception and birth control are accepted among catholics as a normal part of Christian life. Especially when Catholics sit in front of their TV sets taking in the filth of our modern culture and letting the media decide how they are going to think. Did not Jesus say that the eye was the window of the soul? Especially when Catholics divorce just like the world. I know Protestants that put us to shame when it comes to holy living. And they don’t even know the full truth. To be Catholic doesn’t mean that you follow your bishop blindly it means that you follow the Apostolic faith that was handed down through the centuries. This is what we will be judged by both by an unbelieving world that we walk in for a season, and then by God Almighty to Whom we all shall give an account. We have a lot of problems in the Church that need to be addressed. If we do not soften our hearts I fear that the ax is laid to the root and only totally surrendered Catholics will be left standing in the sanctuary when the fog clears. I do not agree with open rebellion but I do agree that as the faithful we must lift our voice in prayer first and then to the evil that is within the Church. Call me a coward if you will but I have found something to both live for and to die for if necessary. What say ye?
Thanks for posting my comments. It took me a bit to remember but I had been reader of your blog for a while, but as it goes in the blogoshere I went to Facebook and so any…but I enjoy your site.
One comment I’d like to add and think with your medical background it might be appreciated. Too often we look straight away at the symptom but never dig deep enough to figure out what the virus is. As a parent we scold or punish our child for braking some house rule, but sometimes as parents we fail to look deeper as to why my child is acting this way. So too with the situation we have today in the Church.
There is no doubt in anyone’s mind (I hope) that they know we are in a very deep crisis. A crisis that runs deep especially here in America. And we know all the problems, and they are long and wide. Now much can be attributed to we the lay for our lack of faithfulness, charity, education, etc. but at the end the day we operate in a monarchy. There is a ceiling that prevents us from going up as we would in any other walk of life. This is more than any walk of life, this is our faith…our salvation! So what do we do?
Do you think you would be as involved as you are in the pro-life fight had the clergy and prelates taken action when the writing was clearly on the wall back in the late 60s? Now it is not to say that “Roe verse Wade” would never have happened, but how would history be today had the bishops mobilized instead of vacillating?
So why is Mr. Voris using the method of attack (to use a military term) that he is? And why is his followers, people like myself who really don’t like his delivery method sometimes, turning to him? Because he is saying what a lot of us are thinking and feeling.
We go to Mass and leave disgusted. I could describe every terrible thing I see during Mass, but I think we all know what they are. It’s a total breakdown on every level. I know there are good parishes out there but too many are just limp noodle affairs (just to say it in a gentler manner). At the diocesan level it’s a corporation where who knows what is going on and you never see the Bishop, let alone him speak up about some issue. And if this wasn’t case, then why are all these lay apostates popping up to show us how to find Christ when it should be the clergy! Because the clergy are not focused on what they should be, and this goes to the top with folks like the Cardinal.
I’ve heard all the stories and excuses about how hard they have it, but I’m 50 years old and been around the block for a while and I can say that there are few clergy working their hands bloody. They might be working, sure, I won’t say that their not, but are they working every day for our salvation focused on what only a priestly vocation can do. Heck my pastor just spent the last year taking Spanish classes so he could say Mass in Spanish to six parishioners! But when a committee asked him if he would learn Latin…no way. I could go on and on, and maybe it’s faulty perception, but I tend to think not. I think there is too much careerism going on and not enough sacrifice. And may if there as outwardly visible sacrifice on the part of the clergy we see more lay sacrifice. (As leader in the Army I modeled for my soldiers through my actions.)
Coming back to Mr. Voris, maybe he is a symptom like a high fever, but when you look at the other vitals it turns out its cancer. The symptom is telling you there is something wrong. Don’t treat the symptom, treat the virus.
Again thanks for allowing me to post.
I’m pretty sure we can safely say Michael is using hyperbole here. Dangerous, yes, but he can’t be held liable for someone taking his words to far. Any sane judge (at least, as far as my novice understanding of the legal system is concerned) would throw out any case of Voris as an accessory to the crime if there was no direct link tying the two together and no evidence to suggest any deal was made – and whatever defense lawyer Voris had would know that.
I get the desire to be timid, but I’m sure you understand, some of us are simply fed up.
If I can tell a personal story real quick, I came into the Faith one hundred percent blind. No one in my family was Catholic or had high opinions of the Church, as it was the case with most people I knew. I came to the faith without any kind of outside interference or guidance save a friend who told me what to do in a Mass, Mother Angelica’s TV program, and the sermons of the Superior-General of the Fathers of Mercy, one Father Bill Casey. Even then, they simply interested me in the faith. They didn’t bring me to it. I had to chip away at 16 years of Anti-Catholic religious instruction and cultural indoctrination.
So I read. I watched. I listened. I studied. I didn’t go through any of this mess I find inside now that I’m here. I did what I did while studying any historical subject: stay as far away from those politicizing the facts as possible, and go right to just the facts.
I learned about the Catholic Faith. Not someone’s idea of it. Not someone’s understanding of it. I went to the Fathers and the pages of history and the faiths and lives of men who’s bones long ago turned to dust (save those who became Incorruptibles I suppose).
My first Mass – a Mass of Paul VI, I really wish people would stop using the unofficial “Novus Ordo” term as it sounds so dirty and unofficial – was a religious awakening, and I loved my parish. But time went on and I just… felt out of place. I felt like I was living a totally different religion than the rest of them. I don’t mean to sound haughty, but… I didn’t take any of it for granted. But it seems that was all anyone else did. A simple discussion of the faith or history I ever entered with them left them staring at me confused, like they’d never heard any of it before. Here I was quoting the Catechism and Canon Law! Individuals who claimed to have degrees in the Faith or its History had barely any idea what I was saying when I brought up certain vital subjects – some even parroted what any old liberal institution would’ve told them!
I just sat there and said, “How can I do this? The religion I joined flat-out does not exist!” Understand, it wasn’t anything to do with being scandalized by other people, but I was alone! No one in my family supported me (through a long war of social attrition, they now do) and I had no one I could go to for the inevitable spiritual guidance I would need. No good confessors, no one I could talk to, no one I could go to for growth. I was stuck and while I knew it all and was sure of it all and still am I was bereft of any ability to adapt and overcome because seemingly everyone around me had simply given up and dropped the Faith even if they still came into Mass on Sunday to keep up appearances or avoid awkward questions at get-togethers.
So, quite frankly, most of us are tired. We can’t sit by. We can’t be quiet. Prayer isn’t enough. I haven’t been to Mass in almost a year’s time now. Why? Because it was a simple matter of stay home and listen to some tracts and watch a Mass on my lonesome and actually grow in my faith or go to my local Parish and walk out asking myself why I even bother! That is NOT how one should feel after receiving the Body and Blood of Our Lord! I know it isn’t, because when I have the time I travel to some of these parishes I get homilies from. I find guidance, friends, insight – even nourishment! That’s something I simply don’t get from my local parish, and it very narrowly made me give up on my faith!
So please, do pardon us if we flock to those who don’t give us blank stares when we tell them about social and familial persecution for our faith. Do forgive me for enjoying the words of someone who is, as you say, “a genuinely good guy.” Do allow me to be able to reach like-minded individuals who don’t think our history is a sham! Do give me leave to work with those who through lay action (literature, public speaking, street evangelization, public witness, media, etc.) rather than simply pretending there’s not a problem! Because there is a problem, and the first step to fixing a problem on this scale is getting a large group of people together who at least acknowledge that there is a problem!
Now I won’t say I dislike your approach of Novenas. But something more concrete has to be done! We, lay Catholics, have to demand better! We must respectfully, loudly, and clearly make our dissatisfaction clear! If we don’t, then in this unfortunately democratic – and oh, how I loathe it – age, we will otherwise never be heard or counted for and those above us will simply assume all is right with the world.
“We go to Mass and leave disgusted.”
I don’t. I go to Mass and I feel grateful. And when I say as much, Reactionaries and Voris followers tell me I am *evil* for doing so. Hatred of the Mass is not a healthy sign for the Greatest Catholics of All Time.
I’m a little late coming in, Gerry, but just wanted to say that I agree what was said needs to be walked back. There’s also a difference between publicly correcting a prelate when one feels there is a danger to the faith. This is permitted. But, as Aquinas says on the matter:
“When a subject corrects his prelate, he ought to do so in a becoming manner, not with impudence and harshness, but with gentleness and respect.”
Aquinas also says:
“It would seem that a subject touches his prelate inordinately when he upbraids him with insolence, as also when he speaks ill of him: and this is signified by God’s condemnation of those who touched the mount and the ark.”
Unfortunately, most people only copy and paste that part that says a subject may publicly correct his prelate. There is a difference between public correction and upbraiding someone.
I disagree with Cardinal Dolan’s involvement in this parade and I am among those who wish he would end that involvement. Ditto with the Al Smith Dinner. I have no problems saying that publicly. I don’t have to upbraid, or speak with condescension or with insolence and disrespect, to make my point. I don’t need to condemn him to Hell – a judgment that is reserved for God alone.
I’m disappointed with Cardinal Dolan’s words and actions on this, but I’m not motivated to castigate him; I’m moved to pray for him. We could do more good by spending time on our knees in a Holy Hour before the Blessed Sacrament than by venting about bishops.
If permitted to offer a link, here was an in depth look at fraternal correction of prelates I did last year. http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-aquinas-really-said-about.html
[Thanks, Diane. It’s a fine piece and I enjoyed it last year. I’m going to post it in an upcoming article. God Bless, Gerry]
“Who is going to save our Church? Not our Bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious act like religious” (Bishop Sheen – 1972).
CCC 907 “In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons.”
I believe Michael Voris (with his concupiscence and all) is sincerely trying to be a faithful son of the Church and is merely a voice crying in the wilderness to make prepare the way of the Lord. Gods grace works upon our nature, yet, God can still write straight lines with (Voris and ourselves) who are crooked pencils. I am so thankful for his voice out in the Catholic world of cyberspace.
I am not a Catholic. I am a British member of a withering Anglican church. But I have to confess (or should I say boast) that after spending several hours listening to his material online I feel refreshed.
I agree with his every breath as he reflects upon the various moral dilemmas being faced by the Western world in the 21st century – and for exactly the same reasons. I also agree with Voris that it is time for moral conservatives to drop anchor and display zero tolerance towards the increasingly candid insanity that is suffocating our lives in the West (in my case the UK).
If I have any criticism – he should cut a bit of moral rope out to some who exist on the other side of the sectarian divide, but who are JUST as theologically and socially conservative as he is. You don’t have to be a Catholic to recognise the truth of the old saying (which is a summary of the 26 verses of Isaiah 3):-
“When the power Satan is at its height your leaders shall have the minds of children and women shall control them”.
Keep up the broadcasts in Rome, Michael. I’ve been saying all of this for years and now Cardinal Burke (especially), Lifesite News, Michael Matt, Kelly Bowring, Chris Fererra and Co. are all rising-up in the name of Truth. Keep it going !!